Vaccine/Autism Alarmists on the March – NYU Law

Imagine my horror when I received the e-mail below, telling me that David Kirby, who apparently claims to have found the smoking gun linking mercury in vaccines to autism, will be speaking at my law school. Dammit, Jim, I’m a lawyer, not a doctor, but I know to listen to studies, and I know that one bizzare case does not a trend make. I also know enough to understand that the public health risks of crying “wolf” on the “vaccine industry” with little evidence outweigh the benefits of a little alarmism. Unless you’re pretty damn sure, it’s a very poor idea to tell parents to stop innoculating their kids.

Here’s the e-mail:

Join David Kirby, best-selling author of “Evidence of Harm — Mercury in Vaccines and the Autism Epidemic: A Medical Controversy” for lecture and discussion.

Thursday, June 26, 2008
NYU School of Law, 40 Washington Square South,
Vanderbilt Hall, Room 204
6:30 – 9:00 PM
RSVP required: kirbylecture@gmail.com

Kirby will address the recent case in US Vaccine Court in which the government conceded that vaccines induced autism in one little girl, give updates on other cases and discuss emerging science on the link between autism and vaccines.

I don’t know if I’ll be able to make the talk, or if I’m the best person to speak up for responsible science on this issue. But someone should. Enough from me, though. Listen to one of my friends, an actual doctor, at Denialism Blog.

341 comments

  1. Anne Dachel · ·

    So David Kirby is the anti-vaccine zealot who links immunizations to autism with all the science against him?

    Hardly.

    Unfortunately, everyone, including the medical community and the media, takes their cue from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The CDC watched as the autism rate exploded and they sounded no alarm. They tell us that the increase is no real increase at all—just “better diagnosing” by doctors.

    The CDC has long had studies that show no link between vaccines and autism. These are epidemiological studies. Researchers simply look at numbers of people. This type of study is famous for being easily flawed and the findings manipulated to get the desired results. Population studies were used extensively by the tobacco industry in the 1940s and 50s to show that smoking didn’t cause lung cancer.

    Everyone seems to forget that the CDC runs the vaccine program. They have everything at stake in denying any link, yet we continue to give them oversight over themselves.

    The CDC continues to ignore the mounting science that does link the dramatic increase in the vaccines schedule to the explosion in the autism rate from one in 10,000 children in the 1970s to one in every 150 kids today, including one in every 94 boys.

    Dr. Boyd Haley, University of Kentucky, Dr. Mady Hornig, Columbia University, Dr. Thomas Burbacher, University of Washington; Dr. Mark Geier, President of The Genetic Centers of America and David Geier, Vice President of The Institute of Chronic Illnesses, and Dr. Jill James, University of Arkansas are just a handful of the independent scientists whose work connects vaccines to neurological damage in our children.

    The latest research on vaccine damage was reported recently from the U. of Pittsburgh. The first research project to examine effects of the total vaccine load received by children in the 1990s has found autism-like signs and symptoms in infant monkeys vaccinated the same way. The study’s principal investigator, Laura Hewitson, PhD, from the University of Pittsburgh, reports developmental delays, behavior problems and brain changes in macaque monkeys that mimic “certain neurological abnormalities of autism.” The findings were also presented at a major international autism conference in London last month.

    Former head of the National Institutes of Health, Dr. Bernadine Healy, was interviewed in May by CBS News reporter Sharyl Attkisson. She challenged the credibility of the CDC and admonished officials for refusing to investigate a susceptible subgroup of children who unable to eliminate the toxins in vaccines. This admission that there hasn’t been enough research and that epidemiological studies are not proof is a major step toward public recognition about what’s happened to our children.

    Nearly 9,000 parents marched in Washington on June 4th to ask Congress to “Green Our Vaccines”? Top experts and national advocates addressed the crowd and the one thing anyone watching this should come away with is the knowledge that we’re not going to go away. I’m sure we’ll be hearing a lot more from David Kirby in the future.

  2. Mr. Kirby’s book contains 436 scientific references. “Before I talk, I should read a book”. B-52’s

  3. Hi,

    I am an attorney too but I am also a trained scientist and have specialist expertise in complex technical evidence.

    I have considered the evidence of the “studies” and they are tosh, bunk, junk and rubbish.

    Regrettably, you have not got a clue what you are talking about. If you want to see the facts you can take a look at my pro bono pages on my website:-

    cliffordmiller.com

    In the Donegan case before the UK’s General Medical Council last August in an exhaustive three week hearing involving 5 medical expert reports and approaching 400 medical references, the absence of any “science” was the most remarkable thing. I know. I was Dr Donegan’s British attorney.

    In particular, not a single paper was produced which established the safety of any childhood vaccine in use in the UK.

    A witness of fact who also was an expert in her own right regarding the testing of pharmaceutical products confirmed also that what is considered the gold standard of medical evidence – the placebo controlled randomised clinical trial is simply not carried out on vaccines – yep, not even ones for kids. And that was why the expert sought out Dr Donegan, for advice about whether to vaccinate her children.

    Fortunately, Dr Donegan’s advice on vaccination is the only advice available in the UK which has been proven in rigorous detailed and extensive legal proceedings to be valid.

    That cannot be said of the dodgy advice from our Department of Health. Not only was Dr Donegan acquitted by the GMC, but most unusually they found her defence proven to the standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Whenever WHO claim lives in the third world have been saved, they refer to “estimates” – guess WHO produces those “estimates”. And are “estimates” science? Not in this case or in the case of WHO. But that is not all. There is no “rigorous science”. Medical research is medical research and not “science” even if they try hard to pretend it is science. And medicine is not science either. And try as hard as they can, I am not sure it is truly accurate to describe any medical research as “rigorous”. Biological systems are a little too uncertain to be rigorous about everything.

    Wake up buddy. You are supposed to be someone who can assess evidence, so go take a look. If you cannot understand it then you should get some help from the skeptics first – not the true believers.

    And why shoot Kirby – he is just the messenger.

  4. B Hines · ·

    Here’s some information from another doctor…Dr. Jon Poling…an neurologist…surely, even a lawyer doesn’t know more about mitochondrial issues than a neurologist, wouldn’t you agree?
    http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/2008/04/11/polinged0411.html

  5. nhokkanen · ·

    In March 7,000 toxicologists attended a Seattle conference, including Dr. George Corcoran, president of the Society of Toxicology and pharmacy chairman at Wayne State University in Detroit. He said that using epidemiological studies is “like doing surgery with a dull knife” — indicative, but not definitive.

    Dr. Cocoran said that concern is now focused on lower toxic exposures over time, saying that “we really don’t have a good handle yet on most of these low-level exposures” (Seattle Post-Intelligencer 3/16/08). Like the 25 micrograms of ethylmercury in 90%+ of 2007-08 influenza vaccinations.

    Though the CDC’s missing VSD data would be useful to review regarding skyrocketing “autism” rates, what’s more important is for physicians, health departments and media to look at the lab tests of children on the autism spectrum. Many parents of ASD kids are familiar with the phrase “mito cocktail” — nutritional supplements used to rebalance deficiencies from mitochondrial dysfunction.

    It’s tragic that the misdirection of hostile bloggers and defensive government bureaucracies is preventing children from receiving medical treatment for the myriad manifestations of vaccine injury.

    Dr. Bernadine Healy is asking the right questions; she’s not anti-vaccine as much as Meryl Streep is not anti-apple.

    Unless the CDC and vaccine manufacturers respond openly and honestly to parents’ reports of their children’s vaccine injuries, nothing will be learned and nothing will be prevented. Running the vaccine program like a roulette wheel is about as unscientific as it gets.

  6. The increase in autism diagnosis is not just “better diagnosis” but a massive expansion of the definition of autism. Plenty of placebo controlled double blind studies have been performed on vaccines, that is how they get FDA approval. There have been massive studies that have examined huge reams of data that have show absolutely not effect of vaccines on autism. The scientific consensus is overwhelmingly against this failed hypothesis. You can not get around that simple fact. You can quote a few highly questionable studies by very biased people that fail to get repeatable results, that all your side has. Science has hundreds of studies that do not show an effect, and these are very repeatable.

    I also like the claim that a poster presentation at a marginal conference on primates accounts as cutting edge published research at a major conference.

    All you have is lies, and misrepresentation. But that is why scientist, doctors, and the courts have ignored you.

  7. Good Lord. Where do these people come from? They speak of the “vaccine industry” in that John Birch-esque “it’s a conspiracy” tone, but given the efficiency with which they fly out the woodwork to comment on every post that disagrees with them, I’m inclined to think they’re the ones conspiring.

    Thank you, Tmtoulouse, for that breath of fresh air. I was afraid the vaccine crackpottery would never end.

  8. This is such a hotly debated topic on both sides with a great deal at stake. It can’t hurt to listen.

    Unfortunately, the earned distrust people have in many of society’s institutions – scientific, political, and economic – make it hard to separate the wheat from the chaff in discussions like this.

    I don’t have an answer to this one, but as a good citizen and a concerned parent I’m not prepared to dismiss these claims out of hand.

  9. The anti-vax cranks seem to have perfected the Gish Gallop (http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Gish_gallop).

    The claim has been listened to and the evidence collected and the results are overwhelmingly against the failed hypothesis that long term neurological damage can be caused by vaccination. I can not emphasize enough just how overwhelming the evidence against it is.

    The half truths, distortions, quote mining, and general misinformation that comes from the mercury militia and their ilk should be evidence enough that their claim is false.

    Science has rejected their claims.
    Doctors have rejected their claims.
    Courts have rejected their claims.

    All they have is the internet gullible and Larry King.

  10. They also have Barack Obama & John McCain :-/

    Thanks to TMT & RA. Thanks to all new visitors, too.

  11. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Thank God for David Kirby…If it wasn’t for the efforts of a few good people like Mr Kirby the press would still be ignoring the autism epidemic just as they did all the way up to 2002.

  12. Wow, Ames, you really brought out the wackos.

    This is such a hotly debated topic on both sides with a great deal at stake. It can’t hurt to listen.

    The “it can’t hurt” gambit is a problem. The truth is, as the antivax mov’t has grown, vaccine rates have gone down, and disease rates have gone up.

  13. Yea cause polemic journalist publishing lies in a book designed to milk the gullible out of a few bucks is the way science should be done! Cheers to Kirby.

    I am still holding out hope that Obama’s obfuscated response about vaccines will prove to be merely pandering………

  14. Absolutely, the measle epidemic in England right now (http://www.news-medical.net/?id=38582) falls clearly at the feet of the anti-vax quacks. It is criminal what they are doing.

    Most of the big wig anti-vaxers are just so evil, the Geir family, lupron and chelation therapy….wow…they belong in jail no question.

  15. Obama?! …Well, that’s disappointing.

    What’s Ralph Nader’s stance on it?

  16. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    All many of us have are previously-non-verbal children who begin to speak for the first time in their lives shortly after starting mercury-chelation…Hmm…There is one question the thimerosal-autism doubters never answer. Why is it that so many severly autistic non-verbal children start to speak and make other developmental gains when undergoing mercury-chelation? If it isn’t mercury-detoxification that is helping these kids then please tell me precisely how the chelation is benefiting autistic kids like my daughter? If it isn’t the mercury detox working then tell me exactly what is happening when these children are being chelated??? I WANT PRECISE ANSWERS ASAP!

  17. First of all, chelation therapy being given to autistic children is criminal and abuse. That needs to be said right up front.

    Second, all you can provide is non-verifiable anecdotal evidence about the so called effectiveness. The placebo effect can work on observers as much as those being treated. You want to see a difference so you see a difference.

    Third, autistic children do develop over time. They are developmentally delayed and will never be “normal” but many can over time gain language function just as any child does. This can be misinterpreted as related to some sort of trial “cure” being applied. But it is no different then me making the claim that banging pans together makes the moon come back after an eclipse because every time there is an eclipse I bang pans and the moon comes back.

    The only way to prove the efficacy of chelation therapy would be in controlled double-blind randomized trials……and those are not done. Instead they are just forced on children that do not have a say.

  18. So long as concerns about vaccine safety are dismissed in this brutal and ignorant manner the subject will continue to be dominated by cultural and institutional bias. Please remember that most of the people who are engaged in representations were those who trusted public health policy in the first place, and articles like this just kick sand in their faces. Very poor stuff.

  19. The concerns were addressed by very detailed, high quality scientific studies and vetted in peer-review journals.

    The results of this systematic review of the evidence is that the claim by anti-vaxers is flat out wrong.

    The fact that you do not like the truth doesn’t mean your concerns were not addressed. At this point the continued claims of dangers of vaccines is criminal negligence.

  20. Kibitzer · ·

    “The claim has been listened to and the evidence collected and the results are overwhelmingly against the failed hypothesis that long term neurological damage can be caused by vaccination.”
    Excuse me, tmtoulouse, but the VICP has found precisely that. And the more that IS found out about the side effects of vaccines – which the ASD brouhaha has brought to the boil – the more pressure there will be for safer vaccines to be delivered. What can possibly be wrong with that?

  21. Really where did the VICP say that autism was caused by vaccines?

    And I love how you call out for a government compensation program dictated by legal standards to support your misguided, misinformed, quack claims.

    I think I will stick with reality, and science. You know the massive peer reviewed studies done in lancet. Or the vaccine safety database work, that all show your hypothesis is flat out wrong.

  22. Hey,

    tmtoulouse, cite “the massive peer reviewed studies done in lancet. ” You have not even looked at a study.

    Stop talking twaddle and get down to facts. And if you cannot cite facts then shut up.

    Cite for me a single double blind peer refereed placebo controlled trial proving the safety of any childhood vaccine. Please choose a study we can all find easily online in full so we can see it is what you claim it is.

    Don’t dawdle now, y’hear.

    Quack, quack.

  23. Clifford – you are aware that your body produces formaldehyde right?

    I also want to ask what is the proposed mechanism by which Hg and H2CO effect autism by the amounts used in vaccines?

  24. From the simpsonwood meeting

    Dr. Brent: Page 229: “The medical legal findings in this study, causal or not, are horrendous and therefore, it is important that the suggested epidemiological, pharmacokinetic, and animal studies be performed. If an allegation was made that a child’s neurobehavioral findings were caused by Thimerosal containing vaccines, you could readily find a junk scientist who would support the claim with “a reasonable degree of certainty”. But you will not find a scientist with any integrity who would say the reverse with the data that is available. And that is true. So we are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits if they were initiated and I am concerned.”
    This Dr. from the simpsonwood meeting he
    said they have no science and that still stands today.

    guess what they never done the studies he talked about except the epidemiological because like the good doc. was saying

    Dr. Weil: Page 207: ” The number of dose related relationships are linear and statistically significant. You can play with this all you want. They are linear. They are statistically significant. The positive relationships are those that one might expect from the Faroe Islands studies. They are also related to those data we do have on experimental animal data and similar to the neurodevelopmental tox data on other substances, so that I think you can’t accept that this is out of the ordinary. It isn’t out of the ordinary. The Seychelles Island studies and somebody said the Faeroe Islands studies both, were chronic exposures. We are not talking necessarily about chronic exposure. We are talking about a series of acute exposures and at one point in time that exposure is much greater on one day than any of the Seychelles Islands. The increased incidence of neurobehavioral problems in children in the past few decades is probably real. you see they were already trying
    to skew the results and change the numbers

  25. There are tons of studies about the safety of vaccines.

    First of all you do realize that all vaccines must pass all phases of fda drug testing for approval right? Every single on went through a phase III trial to assess effectiveness and risk. Every single one.

    A 20 second search through the literature turned up many examples, here is one:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2871241

    And be sure to check out this link here for tons of information specific to your disproved claims:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy#Recent_studies

  26. tmtoulouse Here’s your VSD work

    you said “I think I will stick with reality, and science. You know the massive peer reviewed studies done in lancet. Or the vaccine safety database work, that all show your hypothesis is flat out wrong”.

    CDC Under Attack for “Losing” Negative Vaccine Data

    Byron Richards, CCN

    The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
    (CDC) is coming under a microscope for its inept
    handling of vaccine data that likely showed a
    link between mercury in vaccines and autism. The
    CDC insists publicly that there is no link
    between mercury in vaccines and autism, based on
    several studies with numerous flaws in
    design. It appears the CDC has tampered with
    data to slant results to its favor – a common
    trick of Big Pharma when trying to hide poor results and cover its
    rear end.

    Central to the controversy is a four-year
    analysis by the CDC of a large US database
    called
    the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD). The original
    results of the study showed a significant
    correlation between mercury and autism (as
    discovered by FOI requests). By the time the
    CDC
    was done massaging the data the study showed no
    correlation; and now the CDC has apparently lost
    the data the original results were based on.

  27. Argument via press release. Amazing what you people stoop too.

  28. I posted citations on the safety of vaccines but the post seems to be stuck somewhere here is the summary:

    All vaccines go through phase III fda testing before approval.

    A 20 second search on pub med reveals many double-blind controlled studies, here is an example:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2871241

    Here is a ton of studies showing the safety of vaccines:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy#Recent_studies

  29. Remember the flu shots that were bad, thimerosal did not work then and
    that was the easiest bacterial contaminant to kill, it could not even do the
    job. And looking at this, we now know why ,as there research was
    showing us it was worthless and dangerous
    It is clear from this research supported by a grant from the American
    Medical Association that Thimerosal is neither efficacious nor safe,
    and
    should be removed as a preservative in prescription biologics and
    pharmaceutical products, as well as from topical over-the-counter
    products
    such as Butt-Balm that have Thimerosal present in their formulations
    as an
    active ingredient.
    There was an interim plan in the 80’s to get rid of thimerosal this came out at Congressman Burtons hearing on thimerosal. Dr. Engley was reported as saying on an KOMU article that “if they had followed through on our 82 report the vaccines would have been freed of thimerosal and all this autism they tell me would not have occurred”
    THEY DESTROYED OUR CHILDREN FOR NO BENEFIT NOT TO MENTION BEING WARNED BY
    Dr. Engley and other Scientist with integrity, this is their findings of toxicity
    “We found thimerosal is toxic down to a level that is almost unbelievable. Down to 1.10, maybe 100 nanograms…a millionth of a gram and that is about as toxic as you can get,” he said.” But the FDA, and the CDC did not listen 200 PPB is liquid toxic waste the chidren from the 90’s, some received 32,500 Parts Per Billion at one setting on one day. And you wonder what happened to the kids.

  30. For the record, Byron Richards is a quack and not to be taken seriously. The VSD studies have passed rigorous peer review and fit in a very long line of studies showing the safety of vaccines.

    I have attempted to post links to studies but I think the posts might be stuck in moderation que.

  31. Hopefully the links I posted to reality based research will get out of the moderation cue soon. In the mean time I am done trying to deal with the cut and paste fanatics and their quack theories.

    All of the evidence, all of reality is on the side of vaccine safety. People who push against vaccines are responsible for outbreaks of horrific disease that could be eliminated. Further the pushing of criminal and torturous “cures” like chelation and lupron therapy is, as I have said, criminally negligent. Such “cures” will only wind up killing the children forced into them.

  32. Dr. Engley’s many credentials

    When they said that thimersol should be removed
    and they did not do so then criminal charges are awaiting these criminals. For they poisoned an intire generation of children across the planet.

    We want Justice

    This is the man and his credentials who the CDC says we are supposed to ignore

    It was mentioned earlier that Dr. Frank Engley studied thimerosal as far back as 1942. Dr. Engley is responsible for the 4 year School of Medicine at the University of Missouri. He has consulted for the CDC, IOM, NASA, FDA, EPA, CIA, AAMI, USP, Armed Forces Epidemiological boards, Army, Navy, Air Force as well as Director of research grants and training grants for NIH. Engley Served on the Council of the NIH Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease and a consultant on many Epidemiological Boards too many to list.
    Dr. Engley has been a visiting Professor in over 40 foreign countries medical schools. He has produced films, written text books, Laboratory Manuals, over 100 publications, served on editorial boards for numerous scientific journals and periodicals, including four American, two British and one German. Engley is certified by the American Board of Micro Biology and served as the Chair of the Laboratory of American Public Health Association. He has been listed in American Men and Women of Science, Who’s Who in America, Who’s Who in American Education, Who’s Who among Consultants and Who’s Who in the World.
    His toxicity studies of mercurials in human tissue culture revealed the mercurials were extremely toxic for human cells and the Thimerosal — the most active, toxic down to the nanogram. The amounts of mercury have gone down but vaccines still have 100 times that amount when they are in preservative free and reduced thimerosal vaccines.

  33. Mattandrea · ·

    I am violating my pledge I made last week to never argue with u crazy pro vaccine people again. I won’t try to convince you since that is clearly not possible. Toulouse, are you on the spectrum? why do you want to believe that vaccines are not harmful? Would you be willing to receive more vaccines in order to prove your theory? Can we give you all 36 doses at once since you don’t believe that they can do you any harm? C’mon, don’t be afraid, the studies and , I’m guessing your idol, Paul Offit, say there is no danger. Nothing of any importance to you happened to those Macaque monkeys, what could happen to you? do you have a spouse or any children? do you get flu shots? do you have any chronic illness? Why are you unable to open your mind to the fact that the over vaccination of our children is causing one in six to have a neurological disorder? I feel so sorry for you.

  34. tmtoulouse

    you seem to have a problem with reality the
    NEIHS said that the VSD studies were very flawed, but the studies that were done in
    other countrys was worse. You dont see them
    atacking the biological studies for they are
    sound.

  35. Maurine Meleck · ·

    Thank you David for all you have done for the majority of the autism community Many more individuals are now weighing the pros and cons of vaccines and you are one of the pesons we have to thank for this.

  36. New Haven, Conn. — A Yale School of Medicine study shows for the first time that a high level of testosterone, such as that caused by the use of steroids to increase muscle mass or for replacement therapy, can lead to a catastrophic loss of brain cells.

    Taking large doses of androgens, or steroids, is known to cause hyperexcitability, a highly aggressive nature, and suicidal tendencies. These behavioral changes could be evidence of alterations in neuronal function caused by the steroids, said the senior author, Barbara Ehrlich, professor of pharmacology and physiology.

    when I contacted her the lead author she could
    not believe that children’s vacc.’s contained mercury or aluminum because of the synergy effect of the two salts mixed causing neuron cell
    death by them selves but if you know about the
    synergy effect it then becomes a super toxin and the killing factor is x 10 then you add the high testostarone and it’s catastrophic loss of brain cells. It’s a wonder these children can even talk or function hey that’s right some can’t

    My son has the inabilty to dump heavy metals and now from the depletion of the glutathion
    we have a child that cannot stop making testos.
    you say lupron therapy is, as I have said, criminally negligent
    so if my son is roid raging and according to yale
    catastrophic loss of brain cells. that is perfectly OK ! Are you a moron or a nurodiverse paid piece of crap paid to champion vaccines.

  37. Suzanne Arena · ·

    Denialism Blog – amatures at best.

    tmtoulouse,
    Chelation only had one death in PA which was at the fault of the doctor. It has been performed 1,000’s of times and yet the incidence of death due to the actual procedure is ZERO. Fact is, some child have found the “cure”, while others are no better than before they spent the money.

    When the vaccine schedules changed 20 years ago and they started adding additional amount to vaccines and no one was taking the cummulative dose into consideration along with any studies on “it’s safety” or the combination of additional vaccines that have been added over the years.

    One of my favorite statements: Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. – Margaret Mead

  38. When they can’t answer they bug out like a big fat yellow chicken

  39. Teresa Conrick · ·

    Thanks David Kirby for all that you continue to do for our children.

    Why safer vaccines or a more individualized schedule freaks out so many is mystifying. There may be ulterior motives but the health of future generations does not seem to be part of their buffoon rationale.

    Also, tmtoulouse, your style of writing seems very familiar to another poster(s) who spends an incredible amount of time trying to defend a vaccine program with unsafe ingredients like mercury, aluminum etc. Why do you do that? Are you against safe vaccines?

  40. Hi guys; I’m trying to stay out of this, and will continue to do so, but I wanted to apologize on behalf of the spam filter, which spammed two of TMToulouse’s comments. So if you thought he’d not replied to you, by the magic of the intarwebs, now he has.

  41. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    To Tm…”You wanted to see a diiference so you saw a difference”…Dear Tm….My daughter was completely non-verbal until she was put on chelation therapy at the recommendation of another parent of a previously non-verbal boy…She commenced chelation therapy on her seventh birthday and began speaking three weeks into the therapy…That was six years ago…She has been on chelation therapy for the past six years and now has a fairly complex vocabulary…Incidentally…the mother who recommended the chelation therapy to us had reported that her then-seven-year-old non-verbal son had started speaking shortly after commencing chelation therapy..Now then….Please provide a detailed alternative explanation for why my daughter and our neighbor’s son both began speaking shortly after their seventh birthdays and within three weeks on chelation therapy…P.S..I can assure you that our daughter didn’t start speaking just because we wanted her to…If “wanting her to speak” would have been enough to do the “trick’ she would have started speaking at least five years earlier than she did..So TM..If it wasn’t the mercury detox aiding her sudden verbal development then just how was the chelation working? ..I’ll be expecting a precise, detailed, alternate explanation from you….If not the mercury-detox then what?

  42. This is pretty simple, what is on the side of vaccine safety?

    -Hundreds of large scale epidemiological studies examining thousands and sometimes hundreds of thousands of cases showing no significant harm from vaccines.
    -Hundreds of controlled studies, and phase III fda drug tests which are double-blind placebo controlled and done to thousands of individuals showing the only risk of vaccines are temporary nausea and diarrhea in a small number of people.
    -The overwhelming consensus of research scientist
    -The overwhelming consensus of medical doctors
    -The court and legal system which has reviewed all the evidence and rejected the anti-vaxer claims
    -Reality

    What is on the side of anti-vaxers?
    -Several poorly designed studies that were later retracted from the journals they published in.
    -A collection of studies that could not pass peer review and are dumped in pseudoscience journals
    -Press releases and a few books written by biased anti-vaxers
    -A bunch of random anecdotal evidence collected anonymously on internet forums.

    The dangers of vaccines are extremely mild and extremely rare. The dangers of not vaccinating are horrific epidemics of deadly diseases that are otherwise completely avoidable.

    And of course it can not be said enough that anyone that consents to or performs chelation therapy on a child deserves a long jail term and complete termination of parental rights.

  43. Speaking as one of the ignorant, could you explain exactly how chelation therapy is harmful/worthy of termination of parental rights? (It would also be beneficial for the anti-vaxers to hear, methinks.)

  44. RationalWiki has an article on chelation therapy, and specifically address this issue:

    http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Chelation

    Quote a relevant portion:

    Chelation therapy for autism is particularly horrific since it involves the intravenous injection of dangerous chemicals into a person who, by definition, cannot consent to the treatment. Buttar has also stated that he has the most “success” with children under 9 years old, so there are multiple levels of consent issues. The consequences of chelation therapy are not minor either. In fact, in August 2005 a 5 year old autistic boy Abubakar Tariq Nadama died while receiving his therapy. Roy Kerry, the doctor overseeing Nadama’s treatment, is now being sued for using chelation therapy to treat autism.

    Basically it is taking dangerous chemicals and injecting them in a child that has no possibility of consent, it is mortally dangerous and painful procedure. It has zero effect on autism and is built around a hypothesis that is proven wrong.

    The ironic thing is chelation therapy is the doing to a child exactly what the anti-vaxers claim vaccines do. Taking a child and injecting them with painful and deadly chemicals for no reason.

  45. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Dear Radioactive….Tm cannot answer the simplest of questions regarding chelation therapy..”If not the mercury then what?”..I doubt he will be able to answer a much more complicated question like yours..

  46. Hi,

    tmtoulouse. You are a bit thin on the ground with your “tons” of double blinded placebo controlled randomised clinical trials of vaccine safety. The 1986 Peltola study is not a placebo controlled trial. The “placebo” was another vaccine of unknown safety profile.

    That is the point. Not one of the vaccines in use has ever been subjected to a proper safety trial.

    And all you could come up with is a study from 1986 which would not apply to the MMR vaccines in use today.

    Whilst we wait for you to come up with another study (and it could be some time). Here is another one for you – how about the studies of vaccinated and unvaccinated kids – there are none.

    Oh, and the 2005 Cochrane review of MMR safety and efficacy stated

    “We found only limited evidence of the safety of MMR compared to its single component vaccines from studies that had a low risk of bias. ”

    They looked at 5000 papers. the only studies they could find that were worth looking at compared MMR against single vaccines.

    So tmtoulouse, you know what we say to people who do not have proper scientific evidence to back up what they say – yep it is “Quack, Quack, Quack, Quack, Quack”

    When you can come up with proper safety studies let us know.

    And I notice that most of the time instead of coming up with real information you just go round insulting people and making ad hominem attacks without coming up with the facts.

    I also note you get a lot of your evidence from Wikipedia – the notoriously unreliable source of information edited by nine year olds and some very sad people who spend their lives on it – it seems.

  47. Dear Mr Grawert – Many thanks for keeping this debate alive, and for helping to publicize my event at NYU. I do hope you’ll be able to attend the talk in person, and that you’ll feel free to ask me any question or questions as you see fit, in an open forum setting, with as much back-and-forth as you like.

    A good, open debate is much more interesting and civilized than merely launching barbs from the comfort of one’s own computer, I think.
    And to all my critics in the NY area, please consider this a sincere and respectful invitation to come discuss these issues in a rational and civil manner. Challenge me all you like: that is a good and valued role to play. There is no question I fear. But do try to hear what I have to say in person, first – if at all possible. Many thanks. Respectfully, David Kirby

  48. Really? I think he just did.

  49. Tim,

    You are asking me to respond to an anecdotal story told anonymously over the internet like it is gospel. There is a reason anecdotal evidence is not used in science.

    Chelation therapy does nothing to help autism. Nothing. It is harmful, hurtful and very dangerous.

    Your random ejaculations on this page are not evidence that chelation has any effect on autism. Present real evidence, I will continue to ignore your anecdotes. There are many reasons to suspect that it has any baring on reality what-so-ever.

  50. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Dear Tm..”…”CHELATION THERAPY FOR AUTISM IS PARTICULARLY HORRIFIC SINCE IT INVOLVES THE INTRAVENOUS INJECTION OF DANGEROUS CHEMICALS….” YOUR RESPONSE CONFIRMS YOUR COMPLETE IGNORANCE ON THE SUBJECT OF AUTISM AND CHELATION THERAPY..MY DAUGHTER HAS BEEN ON CHELATION THERAPY FOR SIX YEARS AND HAS NEVER BEEN INJECTED IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, AND HAS NEVER BEEN EXPOSED TO DANGEROUS CHEMICALS.. YOU HAVE EXPOSED YOUR IGNORANCE FOR ALL TO SEE…DON’T YOU THINK IT WOULD BE WISE FOR YOU TO EDUCATE YOURSELF ON THE SUBJECT BEFORE YOU WRITE ABOUT IT?..HAVE YOU EVER PERSONALLY WITNESSED AN AUTISTIC CHILD UNDERGOING CHELATION THERAPY? YOUR RESPONSE LEADS ME TO BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE NEVER PERSONALLY WITNESSED AN AUTISTIC CHILD UNDERGOING MERCURY-CHELATION.

  51. I linked to a section of a wikipedia article that lists many dozens of studies, read the studies not the wikipedia article.

    Regardless the evidence is now presented, and at this point any sane individual can see that the anti-vaxers are deluded.

  52. For those with the stomach to see what these people do to children:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5984127405622843714&hl=en-GB

  53. Do you think that was the real David Kirby? Or was somebody just being cute and posting in his name?

    If the former, then did he really just happen to be—I don’t know—googling his own name at this particular time, and come across this post, or alternatively, is he paranoid enough to have others keep tabs on these sorts of conversations?

  54. You know, Tim, posting in all caps is a sure sign of looniness.

  55. The influx of anti-vaxers makes me think this blog was posted on a forum somewhere.

  56. friend of the child · ·

    Remember they were warned in 1948 and 1982 but certain people
    did not listen so was it greed or by design you
    choose the fact is they were warned!!!!

    This seemed to be the plan ” When the technique has been perfected, every government that has been in charge of education for a generation will be able to control its subjects securely without the need of armies or policemen”

    You see they did not antisipate the mercury from coal fired power plants or mom’s mercury
    burdon from fillings or fish in the diet

    Seems certain people wanted a stepford civilization

    Explain how they did exactly what he said in 1953, they would do

    Just this week ABC said they were going to run a series on what has happened to our children’s brains.

    Answer

    Russell being quoted as saying we would put mercury in vaccines, and other compounds to produce a partial lobotomized state

    Russell
    who advocated the use of vaccines to induce partial chemical lobotomies and create a servile zombie population

    remember this sloagan “EVERY CHILD BY TWO”
    “Diet, injections, and injunctions will combine, from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable, and any serious criticism of the powers that be will become psychologically impossible.” – Bertrand Russell

    often wondered why every child by two now I guess I know

    “from a very early age, to produce the sort of character and the sort of beliefs that the authorities consider desirable,”

    1953. Bertrand Russell, The Impact of Science on Society: “…the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology…. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated. When the technique has been perfected, every government that has been in charge of education for a generation will be able to control its subjects securely without the need of armies or policemen. As yet there is only one country which has succeeded in creating this politician’s paradise

    PRETTY DAMING STUFF

    Remember Rockafeller believed this way and he and others
    like him funded the sabine foundation which brought us
    the modern day vaccine program, or maybe a Trojan horse

    Everything I have posted pivits on one thing this book written in 1953

    look it up If it is not in this book then I am wrong, but if it is in this book
    what I am saying must be right

    because they followed it as though it was a recipe

    I am not saying most of the main stream
    medical believes this, they have been sold
    a bill of goods called the the vaccine program.
    At all cost protect it from falling ” my thought is
    1 – 6 kids having a neurological learning disability it is already failed 1- 150 children
    1 – 92 boys having autism it has become a child harming program now.
    It is time to let this dinosaur die in the current form let a new program with real science and no
    toxins in them with a non cookie cutter schedule.

    In his own words not mine ” When the technique has been perfected ” you would not need policeman or armies

    Is this the new world order they keep saying we need ? ? ? ?

  57. Ames, could you delete that last comment by “friend of child” as spam? It’s just too Timecube-esque to leave up. Plus it’s really long and a pain to scroll through.

    Or maybe we should leave it up, as a monument to the incoherency of the anti-vaxers?

  58. DON’T YOU THINK IT WOULD BE WISE FOR YOU TO EDUCATE YOURSELF ON THE SUBJECT BEFORE YOU WRITE ABOUT IT?..HAVE YOU EVER PERSONALLY WITNESSED AN AUTISTIC CHILD UNDERGOING CHELATION THERAPY? YOUR RESPONSE LEADS ME TO BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE NEVER PERSONALLY WITNESSED AN AUTISTIC CHILD UNDERGOING MERCURY-CHELATION.

    Tim: You’re confusing “educated” with “personally witness”. There is a vast difference between the two. Any boob can watch something. It takes an educated person to understand it. Which is exactly what what Tmtoulouse is—an educated person. As opposed to you, Tim, a desperate uninformed zealot who tramples on the humanity of their own child.

  59. Tim, I appreciate the dedication you have towards helping your child, and I respect the sacrifices you no doubt make to help them. I hope that in this conversation that remains clear. No matter what’s said, I sympathize with that, and I’m sure everyone else here does.

    RA, I prefer to let the crazy comments like that one stay around for a while :-). And I *do* think that was the real Kirby; from what the incoming links show, it looks like this post was circulated over e-mail to a couple message groups. It wouldn’t shock me if Kirby got a copy of the e-mail. Happened once before, too, with a conlaw professor, which knocked my socks off!

  60. friend of the child · ·

    you say it is bad to chelate you might want to know it is on the CDC website If you get to much
    mercury It is necessary to chelate

    My child like so many has the labs proven heavy
    metal toxicity would you not allow what the CDC says is necessary, for a child with labs???

    You might want to look back in history at pinks
    AKA mercury toxicity through teething powders. The drug of choice was chelation
    and it solved the problem so quickly they could
    not get a study togather before it had eradicated it. So your idea that chelation is not safe is false,
    and history points this out, it was as they say the drug of choice.

  61. Teresa Conrick · ·

    Well, tmtoulouse did not answer my question regarding wanting safer vaccines. No surprise there or that a new poster ,”Radioactive afikomen ” then jumps in to help him as his posted studies are of the recycled wiki brand and outdated. Now they tag team as they attack Tim for speaking out on how his daughter has made excellent strides in biomed/detoxification.

    I hope that those who want more scientific information without having to wade through the ad hominem attacks and sarcasm here will attend David Kirby’s NYU event. Mitochondria, mercury, et al and autism are more interesting and pertinent than the tag team above.

  62. David Kirby is to be thanked for his excellent book, public discussions and appearances, in helping to bring awareness of the vaccine-autism link to a great many people and encourage them to seek information and study the issues.
    Jenny McCarthy is also to be praised for her campaign to reconsider the necessity (?) of an overloaded and ever-increasing vaccine schedule (a big money-making engine for pharmaceutical companies). She is an outstanding spokesperson for the concern and consideration of a limited amount of vaccinations.

    I ask: what would happen to the paradigm of the pharmaceutical-driven western-medical/illness industry if the CDC, FDA or any government institution should admit a vaccine-autism link?
    And. . . if a traditional medical community pediatrician were even to think that the link is possible, might then he or she have to face his/her role in administering dozens of vaccines that has helped propel this epidemic?

  63. Anyone wanting reality based information should run away from Kirby as fast as they possibly can. The fact is that all the science is against these guys, they have nothing. I all ready listed above what evidence is on our side. All they have is random ejaculations of anecdotal evidence.

    The wikipedia article lists dozens of studies over the last 10 years that have shown that vaccines are perfectly safe. No valid studies have come out since then to show that they are not. None. Yet all the hundreds of thousands of individuals that have been analyzed are “outdated” because the anti-vaxers don’t like what reality has to say about their pet theory.

    Ames may not put scorn on Tim and his ilk, but anyone that subjects their autistic children to chelation or lupron therapy should have their parental rights immediately revoked and spend a good long time in jail.

    Other interesting links to check out:

    http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Vaccine_hysteria
    http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Autism_omnibus_trial
    http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Lupron_therapy
    http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Chelation_therapy

  64. I think it is worth looking at the style of argumentation the anti-vaxers use:

    They present unsubstantiated anecdotal evidence, random quotes that are either quote mined or are from totally discredited sources, conspiracy fear mongering, equivocation, and lots of hand-waving over the mountains of evidence showing them how wrong they are.

    This is not how science and medicine is done. This is the anti-thesis to rational reality based thought. I feel immensely sorry for their children.

    They have lost every single battle in science, medicine and the courts. All they have left is wandering the internet trying to scare other parents into believing their idiocy. There one mark on this world will be the creation of deadly outbreaks of preventable disease. Thats sad…really sad.

  65. friend of the child · ·

    There was a subset group of 1 – 500 children
    that had complacations of pinks

    not all children who got mercury powders
    ended up with pinks

    This seems like an arguement most of us are confronted with how come all children don’t have autism that get vaccines? this disease
    from history pretty much answers that
    question

    seems the same subset is around today.
    except maybe the amount of toxin and added multipile toxins and synergy effects or
    the route of exposure causing the subset
    to climb to 1 – 150

    like the morons today fighting the the parents of mercury poisoned children

    This could be todays headlines The resistance
    to the evidence of mercury poisoning is typical of resistance to new
    medical knowledge and declined only when the opponents and sceptics grew
    old and disappeared from the scene.

    “Meanwhile, the cause having been
    identified and accepted, pink disease disappeared ” and history tell us how
    C H E L A T I O N

    Seems they had idots and junk scientist back then too

    This honestly could be todays headlines
    and some day it will be

    The rise and fall of vaccine induced autisim

    The rise and fall of pink disease.

    Dally A.

    Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine, London.

    This paper explores the social and medical history and context of pink
    disease (acrodynia), a serious disease of infants and young children
    that baffled the medical world during the first half of the twentieth
    century until it was shown to be caused by mercury poisoning. In the
    English-speaking world the commonest source of the mercury was teething
    powders, which were widely available and advertised with increasing
    sophistication. Efforts to control them (such as the BMJ’s campaign against
    ‘Secret Remedies’) were as yet unsuccessful. The article discusses the
    social conditions that influenced the existence and recognition of pink
    disease, the delay in finding its cause, the way in which it was
    explained as a virus infection or nutritional deficiency and why it seldom
    occurred outside the teething period. It discusses both professional and
    lay attitudes to health and diseases during the early twentieth century
    and provides a model of how the disease developed in a specific social
    setting and how the medical profession attempted to deal with it within
    the limitations of contemporary professional thought. The resistance
    to the evidence of mercury poisoning is typical of resistance to new
    medical knowledge and declined only when the opponents and sceptics grew
    old and disappeared from the scene. Meanwhile, the cause having been
    identified and accepted, pink disease disappeared, but its consequences
    emerged much later, in an unexpected quarter, as a cause of male
    infertility.

    Publication Types:
    Historical Article

    PMID: 11619497 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE

  66. It’s interesting. Ignoring for a moment the obviously deranged antivax commenters (although they are a bit over-represented in any club that attracts conspiracy theorists); ignoring the crazies for a moment, let’s examine what’s been put forth.

    The overwhelming scientific evidence, the overwhelming medical and scientific consensus, show that vaccines have revolutionized our lives.

    There has been no “evidence of harm” that has even scratched the surface. The antivax propaganda (and Kirby’s is much more sophisticated than Jenny McCarthy’s) is just that—propaganda. Much of it is driven by good motives, but it is still wrong.

    The “evidence” consists of cherry picked studies, and whenever someone points out that the overwhelming bulk of the evidence is quite clear, the deus ex machina of a big pharma conspiracy swoops in to rescue them.

    It just doesn’t hold up. While all these folks are getting worked up about “chicken embryos” and “antifreeze) (sic, sic) in their vaccines, the rest of the scientific community is getting things done—looking for ways to prevent and treat disease.

  67. Here, Here, PalMD.

    It can not be emphasized enough just how overwhelmingly huge the evidence on the side of safe vaccines really is. They have done studies on whole country populations. There are hundreds of papers demonstrating efficacy and safety.

    It can not be emphasized enough just how pitiful the evidence cited by anti-vaxers really is. They have no significant studies that are published in peer review respectable journals (and the few that are have been retracted for gross violations of conduct in data collection and analysis). They have nothing but anecdote and internet fear mongering.

    Vaccines save lives by the hundreds of thousands, they prevent horrific diseases and are one of the single greatest medical advancements in our history on this planet.

    Anyone that wants to take that away is crazy. These people are dangerous.

  68. friend of the child · ·

    This is the proof the CDC bought the
    IOM but as of recently we have learned that the IOM advised the CDC to seek counsel this should not be happening in the US.

    Here is some of your science and professionals
    at work

    Dr. McCormick, for example, in speaking of the CDC, noted that the
    agency
    “wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a
    population
    basis.” (See Exhibit 1 at page 33).

    later she says what walt wants walt generally
    gets.

    This was actually what they said in their minutes

    “We’ve got a dragon by the tail here,” states a committee member in the
    transcript. “At the end of the line, what we know is – and I agree –
    that
    the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely
    people
    are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of
    that
    will be. We are kind of caught in a trap. How we work our way out of
    the
    trap, I think, is the charge.”

    Notice how they are justifying lieing for the greater good

    Just how do you, poison a child for the greater good anyway

    When byronchild asked CDC spokesperson Curtis Allen for a copy of the
    contract that would detail the agreement between the IOM and the CDC,
    Allen
    stated that the contract would be available only in a heavily
    “redacted” or
    blacked-out format.

    The IOM stated “no comment” to byronchild about the leaked transcript
    or its
    use in the pending civil court case.

    If you can condone these lie’s and deciet
    then you are either stupid or a paid pharma
    parent assassin

    If any body reading this thinks these people responsible for vaccines would admit a mistake
    and do what’s right if they were to be hurting children.
    This statement will prove how cruel and Evil they
    truly are they seem not to have a concience or a
    heart

    Dr. Stratton: “We said this before you got here, and I think we said
    this
    yesterday, the point of no return, the line we will not cross in public
    policy is to pull the vaccine, change the schedule. We could say it is
    time
    to revisit this but we will never recommend that level. Even
    recommending
    research is recommendations for policy. We wouldn’t say compensate, we
    wouldn’t say pull the vaccine, we wouldn’t say stop the program.”

    Similarly, Dr. McCormick, at page 97 in discussing whether autism could
    be
    associated with vaccines, stated that “we are not ever going to come
    down
    that it is a true side effect,” despite the fact that the committee had
    not
    yet considered any evidence on this issue.

    Notice how they say “We wouldn’t say compensate”

    These people who controll our vaccine programs

    are pure E V I L from the pit of hell and just like
    Hitler will answer for all the jews he murderd

    the pharma whores will answer to GOD for the inocent children they burned their brains out
    for pharma bucks and power

    This scandel is just in today

    An editorial in today’s New York Times begins: “Three prominent
    psychiatrists at the Harvard Medical School and is affiliated
    Massachusetts General Hospital have been caught vastly underreporting
    their income from drug companies whose fortunes could be affected by
    their studies and promotional efforts on behalf of aggressive drug
    treatments.”

    The key phrase is “prominent psychiatrists at Harvard….have been
    caught.”

    Is such conduct what Harvard’s alumni expect from the prominent
    faculty of their Alma Mater?

    Another editorial, in The St. Petersburg Times, notes: “The
    pharmaceutical industry’s corrupting influence on medical research
    has reached a new low with a case that has stained the reputations of
    Harvard University and three of its top researchers in child
    psychiatry.. ..”It took a congressional investigation to uncover a
    conflict of interest that could violate federal and university rules.
    As a result, the credibility of a supposed breakthrough in treating
    childhood bipolar disease is now in doubt.”

    The previously unknown payments to the researchers were pried loose by
    Senator Charles Grassley of Iowa, the ranking Republican on the Senate
    Finance Committee, whose staff reviewed what the researchers
    disclosed on
    conflict-of- interest forms at their institutions and prodded the
    university
    to verify the data as accurate. Under pressure, two of the researchers
    acknowledged receiving $1.6 million apiece in consulting fees from
    drug
    companies between 2000 and 2007 and the third reported earning more
    than $1
    million. That was far more than the researchers had originally
    reported, a
    number that Mr. Grassley pegged at a couple hundred thousand dollars
    apiece.
    Even the updated numbers left out other payments that drug companies
    reported separately that they had made to the trio.

    There will be a lot of pharma ho’s burning in HELL

  69. friend of the child · ·

    And To A Good Nite

  70. Vaccines with “trace” amounts of Thimerosal, by definition, “contain less than 1 microgram of mercury (Hg) per dose (http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm).” For example, consider that the reduced-Thimerosal flu vaccine with 0.0002% mercury is equivalent to 1 microgram [µg] of Hg per 0.5 mL, or 2 µg of Hg per mL, which is the same as 2000 µg per liter; or 2000 parts per billion [ppb].
    0.5 parts per billion (ppb) mercury has been shown to kill human neuroblastoma cells (Parran et al., Toxicol Sci 2005; 86:132–40).
    2 ppb mercury is the U.S. EPA limit for drinking water (http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contaminants/index.html#mcls).
    20 ppb mercury destroys neurite membrane structures (Leong et al., Neuroreport 2001:12733–7).
    200 ppb mercury is the level in liquid that the EPA classifies as hazardous waste (http://www.epa.gov/epaoswer/hazwaste /mercury/regs.htm#hazwaste).
    25,000 ppb mercury is the concentration of mercury in multi-dose, Hepatitis B vaccine vials, administered at birth from 1991-2001 in the U.S.
    50,000 ppb mercury is the concentration of mercury in multi-dose DTP and Haemophilus B vaccine vials, administered 8 times in the 1990’s to children at 2, 4, 6, 12 and 18 months of age and currently “preservative” level mercury in multi-dose flu, meningococcal and tetanus (7 and older) vaccines.

  71. friend of the child · ·

    In the word of GOD ,GOD talks to job
    and mentions the laviathon he was
    talking about the dinosaur.

    the word of god also talks about the world as being round when all of the intellagent bone heads were saying that it was flat and you would sail off the end.

    The word also talk’s about the tide’s rolling in and out and why, the moon. And how god told it not to go beyond where he has it set

    he also say’s the body is fearfully and wonderfully made

    It doe’s chemical analisis in one day, more
    than a labratory

    The fool has said, in his or her own heart there is no GOD. Guess who will have the last laugh one day.

    He God said canst thou bind the sweet influences
    of Pleiades or loose the bands of Orion

    He is the Great I AM, the lion of juda, the king of kings, and the Lord of Lords,
    In case you don’t know by now I am a christian and proud of my God.

  72. This is getting really Timecubey for me…

  73. GrammaKnows · ·

    Thank you, David Kirby…

    As for the anti-chelation and pro-vaccinebunch here – Thanks for the laughs.

    For your information, chelation is used every day for removal of metals in kids and adults – and usually NOT on the autism spectrum.

    It is a procedure that is (and I quote from an insurer in upstate NY):
    Chelation therapy is the treatment of choice for heavy metal poisoning. The treatment consists of the intravenous administration of chelating agents to promote excretion of the offending metal. Treatment may also include medical care.
    Chemical endarterectomy is a form of chelation therapy and is used for the removal of plaque or calcium. The treatment consists of the intravenous administration of EDTA (Ethylenediamine-Tetra-Acetic).
    Payment may be made for chelation therapy for heavy metal poisoning or secondary hemochromatosis.

    The following levels will be utilized to indicate whether the patient is toxic. For metals not listed below, additional documentation must be maintained in the medical record, to substantiate using chelation therapy, and be available to the carrier upon request. In addition, the definitive methodology for heavy metal detection in blood and urine is Atomic Absorption spectrometry (AA). It is not appropriate to use hair testing analysis or laboratory standard deviation parameters to indicate heavy metal toxicity.

    Arsenic:
    24 hour urine> 50 mcg/L or > 100 mcg/per 24 hour collection

    Lead:
    Whole blood (Adult) > 45 mcg/dl
    Whole blood (Pediatric) > 25 mcg/dl

    Mercury:
    Urine> 20 mcg/L
    Absolute indicator > 150 mcg/L
    Whole blood > 35 mcg/L

    (My grandson’s level is 266mcg/L – I guess I should ignore this is 1.77 times the absolute indicator and 13 times the baseline toxicity, and trust YOUR judgement on this…NOT!!!)

    Thallium:
    Whole blood > 100 mcg/L

    Urine > 200 mcg/L

    Iron:
    Serum > 300 mcg/dl

    Zinc:
    Serum > 150 mcg/dl
    Plasma > 100 mcg/dl

    Payment may also be made, on a post-payment basis, for chelation therapy in the treatment of the following conditions:

    – Emergency treatment of hypercalcemia

    – Thalassemia intermedia with hemochromatosis

    End quote.

    If you have a question about the safety of the – how did the insurance company put that? ah, yes ” treatment of choice for heavy metal poisoning”…try visiting the OSHA site and running some numbers on occupational exposures to get some idea of how common it is….and that’s just the IV form, and doesn’t include the less invasive suppositories, transdermal or oral methods. Aside from kids who live in the neihborhoods surrounding occupational sites like foundries, millworks, mining operations and smelters, the workers themselves, from these occupations and (gasp!) even your dentist & dental technicians are likely to have it done.

    What’s even funnier, is you use chelators every day and don’t even know it! EDTA is in your laundry soap, dish soap and shampoo. If you take milk thistle, you are chelating iron, magnesium malate in your vitamins, you are chelating aluminum. On the other hand, if you don’t take enough calcium and use fluoride, you are dragging lead into your bones.

    and tmtoulouse? if you are going to pull up studies that show “safety” try to avoid twin studies because the virtual population of the study gets cut in half, try to run the numbers of how many are actually adversely affected, find out what substances were in the “placebo” (as in the shot without the viral element?) and if they are looking at anything beside whether they have achieved a specific antibody response, ok?…4% possible reactions = 46 kids in that study – which means in a population of half a million kids, 20,000 – let me repeat that TWENTY THOUSAND can be expected to have a reaction – and that’s only the MMR alone, not in combination with any other vaccines.

    …and if you check out the US Census on how many kids it would be (age 0-5), the latest figures are 20,724,125. If only 85% were vaccinated withthe MMR alone, the adverse reactions would be expected in 704,620. Do you even fathom that is OVER 700,000 kids would have an adverse reaction, and you are calling that “ok”!?!
    http://www.census.gov/popest/states/asrh/tables/SC-EST2007-01.xls

    I’m going to paraphrase you, now, tmtoulouse:

    The only way to prove the efficacy of combination vaccines would be in controlled double-blind randomized trials……and those are not done. Instead they are just forced on children that do not have a say.

    Get a life, people – take the time to actually find how the real world works. Do the math, research the therapies, watch the recovery videos, and ask who’s trying to save their government pension or vaccine patent royalties before you open your mouth (or keyboard as the case may be).

    Just leave parents who are actually parenting their kids out of it. ..they obviously know a helluva lot more than you do.

  74. Wow…………………

    I guess that puts a nice cap on it all……..I think it is obvious who lives in reality……and who…..doesn’t.

  75. [...] nascent lawyer had the temerity to call him out, and ZOMG! Kirby took the bait and brought his addled-minded [...]

  76. If you were a Christian, “friend of the child”, you’d know that God has given us the blessing of being able to think rationally and understand the world through science. He has given us the blessing of intelligence, to help us treat the sick, prevent disease, and build a better world for ourselves.

  77. Hey,

    tmtoulouse. This is about child health safety and all you can do is come out with bunk remarks about “anti-vaxers” when people are concerned about child health safety.

    You have given them more concern. You still have not managed to cite a single gold standard piece of scientific evidence showing childrens’ vaccines are properly tested.

    That is because they are not.

    So, please cite the essential evidence which is the double blind placebo controlled randomised clinical trials.

    All the insults and bonkers references to “anti-vaxers” will not help you. Give us the evidnce or else you can – yep – guess what:-

    “Quack, quack, quack, quack, quack” all the way home.

    Give us the science or else “Quack”.

  78. Louisa Gerhig · ·

    A good friend with ALS just got tested for heavy metals – mercury and alumuninum through the roof. He is chelating at a practice in the South. He can now walk 1/2 a mile instead of a few paces before tiring. He can lift his grandson safely. He doesn’t need his leg brace or a cane. He has more energy. Oh, and he was an avid flu shot proponent for the last decade+. Got one every year, as a healthy 40 something man. Chelation simply removes metals from the body. It’s not voodoo any more than chemotherapy is, for removing cancerous cells from the body. The problem with chelation is that if it works, you have to ask WHERE did the metals come from. And the fickle finger of fate points at vaccines.

    Louisa.

  79. I am damn sure that none of my children will be receiving anymore vaccines. As Jim Carrey put it, how stupid do you think I am?

    So stupid that I am going to inject my children with more of the crap that’s so toxic it’s got a skull and crossbones on the bottle? So stupid that I will still believe the pharma industry and the CDC and the media when they tell me that there’s no longer thimerosal in flu shots, even now, after they’ve lied to me so much in the past? So stupid that I can’t take the second or two that it takes to read the FDA website, http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#t1, where it says, right there in table one, that there is STILL twelve to twenty five micrograms of thimerosal, that’s half MERCURY, in flu shots that are given to children? That’s STILL the same level of thimerosal that parents have been screaming about for decades now. Oh I forget, as a parent, I can never be taken seriously by people like you. Not until I am able to say that I can remain totally unaffected emotionally even while my child has been destroyed. I hope to God you have no children.

    None of my children are severely enough affected by the vaccine damage they received before and after they were born to warrant diagnosis. However when my oldest was three we were told by her gastro intestinal specialist, who she was seeing because she had bowel movements roughly every ten days, that she might have autism. She is doing well now. She was main streamed throughout school. I first became suspicious of vaccines when she was fifteen and doing a report about porphyria for school and came to me one day while doing research and said “Mom I think I have lead poisoning.” When I told her I felt it was unlikely she paused and then said “well then I think I have mercury poisoning. I have a lot of the symptoms.” She does, as a matter of fact. This was around five years ago, and years before either of us had ever heard that there were people who were concerned about vaccine damage.

    I find the title of your blog interesting and ironic, given the treatment that I’ve received at the hands of the vaccine apologists in the intervening years. I’ve been banned from politic chatrooms both left and right leaning, rooms where I’d chatted amiably for years, for no other reason than saying the word ‘thimerosal’. I’ve been threatened with arrest for no other reason than simply standing on a public sidewalk politely asking people if they’d like information about vaccine safety, and handing them a flyer if they said yes and letting them pass unobstructed if they said no. Flyers similar to this one, http://www.wideopenwest.com/~r_nemeth/vaccine_flyer.htm

    Yes I am DAMN sure it’s a bad idea to inoculate my children, and I am DAMN sure going to keep on telling parents what I know about vaccines and that they are making a big mistake if they choose to inoculate—most certainly if they choose to do so according to the insane schedule that has been recommended. I will continue to do so until my government and my media and the pharmaceutical industry stops lying to me, comes clean, and does anything and everything they can in good faith to try to fix the damage they’ve done.

    You speak of your friend the ‘real doctor’ at Denialism Blog, as though there are no doctors who support parents who know that their children were fine until vaccinated. And the first thing that I see there is the name Bernadine Healy, the former head of the National Institute of Health. Who has now finally found the courage to speak the truth.

    I notice that over there at Denialism Blog they seem to have little to offer except ad hom remarks aimed at the parents and the well credentialed scientists and doctors and journalists who support them. So I don’t think I’ll be wasting any more time over there.

    Mr. Radioactive, the people ‘flying out of the woodwork’, as you put it, are merely the thousands of people who’ve been effected by the toxins in vaccines who have finally been able to organize, thanks to the internet, and take on the industry that contributes more in lobbying dollars to congress than any other industry. It is the same industry that owns the main stream media, as anyone can see simply by looking at the sponsors for most of the television ads seen on your nightly news programs.

    What other industry is able to ‘sell’ it’s products through mandated use, and then avoid all liability through the normal civil court system? Tmtoulouse speaks of parents who are guilty of abuse for chelating. It is attitudes like his, similar to that of the child protection service workers who seized over four hundred children in texas based on no evidence at all, that endanger our children. The idea that the government can usurp a parents right to make health decisions for their children scares the hell out of me, especially now, given what I know about the screw ups that are possible and given what I know about the corruption in the system and the willingness to continue on with the genocide—and make no mistake, this has been nothing short of genocide since those responsible first learned of what they did and made the choice to try to cover their rear ends even when that course of action meant MORE children would be harmed.

    I’ve had enough of the poor arguments I see from the vaccine apologists as I read through the comments here. If this blog is any indication of the state of our culture’s law and ‘reasoning’ abilities, this country is in deeper doo doo than I thought.

    Thank God for journalists such as David Kirby and Dan Olmsted, scientists such as Burbacher and Hornig, doctors such as Jay Gordon and the many competent DAN doctors who are following in the footsteps of Bernard Rimland, and most of all, thank God for the internet.

  80. Let’s assume arguendo that vaccines are dangerous, and potentially cause autism. I have to say, anyone who weighs the risks of a (let’s be generous) 2% chance of autism against the higher risks of polio, measles, mumps, smallpox, etc., and decides to expose their kids to the latter rather than the former is a fool.

    If vaccines potentially cause autism, the answer is to research into it and fix it. The answer is *not* to stop vaccinating children. I cannot imagine who would even leave the front door cracked open for smallpox to sneak in.

    This is exactly why we can’t afford to cry “wolf” so quickly.

  81. Boosterz · ·

    “I am damn sure that none of my children will be receiving anymore vaccines. As Jim Carrey put it, how stupid do you think I am?”

    Um, do you REALLY want an answer to that?

  82. Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary · ·

    This really made me laugh!

    >tmtoulouse said:

    >I think it is worth looking at the style of >argumentation the anti-vaxers use:

    (snip)

    >Science has rejected their claims.
    >Doctors have rejected their claims.
    >Courts have rejected their claims.

    Aren’t you a bit of the pot calling the kettle black when you complain about someone else’s reasoning skills and then make claims that are logical fallacies?

    Just because everyone thinks the earth is flat does not make it so. History is riddled with enormous errors, and arguing that experts are right because they are experts or arguing that everyone believes something is a waste of breath, at best.

    And did you read the “hundreds of large scale epidemiological studies” and the “hundreds of studies that do not show an effect” ? I think it’s apparent by your hyperbole that you haven’t. There actually are a small handful of epidemiological claiming no association between vaxes and autism actually, and they all are questionable, and anyway epidemiology doesn’t prove anything in any direction, it just looks for associations that are then submitted to clinical studies. So we already know you’ve no idea what you’re talking about.

    Science doesn’t prove that things have “no effect”, btw, it only falsifies theories that hypothesise a given effect.

    And FYI, FDA testing is a misnomer – FDA does no testing; pharmaceutical companies that make and profit from vaccines “do” the research, and just submit the paperwork to the FDA. So the people who make the product do the testing. At least hypothetically. You might want to google recent news stories about Merck being investigated by the FDA for writing its own scientific (promotional) literature, and then recruiting physicians to pay to put their own name on it as though the opinion came from a unbiased professional outside the pharmaceutical company.

    Your arguments make it clear you’re flying blind here – and you’re unfortunately out of your league. There are people here who could easily debate the intricacies of each of the studies with you, except that it’s clear you’re full of rhetoric. If you want to have a serious discussion you’re going to have to go and get the other half of your education (the non-rhetorical part, and the actual reality and science part too!) first.

  83. Well, since autism is found in (currently) about 1 in 150 children, and the ratio of children currently vaccinated is (averaging across the rates of various vaccines) 85.5% (source) that means… ugh. I’m sorry, it’s early in the morning and I’m not in the mood to do math right now. Could someone else figure out the nonexistent relationship between these numbers?

  84. Boosterz · ·

    Also I couldn’t help but point this out:

    “You have given them more concern. You still have not managed to cite a single gold standard piece of scientific evidence showing childrens’ vaccines are properly tested.”

    All this moron is attempting to do is shift the burden of proof. Him and the rest of the anti-vax nut jobs are the ones making the claim that vaccines cause a host of diseases. They are the ones with the burden of proof(which they always fail to meet). Show us some actual science that links vaccines to autism or some other disease. All of the available evidence says that the anti-vax crowds claims are complete bunk. Let’s get a few things straight shall we:

    1.) there is no autism epidemic. It’s simply a matter of reporting and classification.

    2.) if vaccines do cause/contribute to autism why is their no statistical correlation? If the anti-vax crowds claims were true you could look at vaccination records and compare them to autism statistics and they should correlate. In other words, areas with high vaccination records would have higher autism rates then areas with low vaccination records. This isn’t the case. Why do you think that is?

    3.) chelation may have a practical use when it is applied by an actual trained physician to treat a legitimate case of heavy metal toxicity. However, 25 micro grams of ethylmercury is not even close to being a toxic dose of mercury. Not to mention the anti-vaxers who are pushing chelation therapy tend to NOT be trained physicians. They have a tendency to be chiropractors or homeopaths or some other form of witch doctor. Unqualified hacks attempting to perform real medical procedures have the annoying habit of causing harm/death. In the case of chelation, it can cause hypocalcemia which can lead to death by heart attack. This has happened more then once when some quack tries to administer chelation therapy to some poor kid whose parents bought into the anti-vaxer’s BS.

    So, instead of trying to shift the burden of proof, why don’t one of you anti-vax types show me some actual evidence supporting your claims. Anyone? Clifford?

  85. Mary:

    Your arguments make it clear you’re flying blind here – and you’re unfortunately out of your league. There are people here who could easily debate the intricacies of each of the studies with you, except that it’s clear you’re full of rhetoric. If you want to have a serious discussion you’re going to have to go and get the other half of your education (the non-rhetorical part, and the actual reality and science part too!) first.

    And just like that, irony dies.

  86. Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary · ·

    PS – rationalwiki is apparently as ridiculous and biased as the regular wikipedia. I can see why it’s valuable if you already buy into its ideology, but for those of us who disagree, it’s like arguing to atheists that they should do something because the bible says so.

    They repeatedly refer to the diphtheria tetanus and acellular pertussis vax as DPaT when it is pertussis that is acellular, and acellular makes no sense in regards to tetanus, since it is a toxin based vax, and not a cellular vaccine anyway. It should be DTaP and it’s not a typo – the mistake is made over and over again, and I don’t think these people know what they’re talking about.

    And note they refer to the Burbacher study (citation 12):

    “Initial studies on the pharmacokinetics indicate differences [between ethyl and methyl mercury].”

    Yeah, the study found that the difference is that ethylmercury from vaccines converts to inorganic mercury and stays in the brain for a long time, t 1/2 = 227-540, and that there is about half as much inorganic mercury in the brain from (seafood based) methyl mercury.

    Nothing quite like citing the study and then leaving out the details you don’t quite like.

  87. Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary · ·

    Oh, that’s another advanced technique of argument. Don’t rebut the actual claims, but seriously mischaracterise them so that they are preposterous, and then wait for the applause when you rebut them. I’m flabbergasted by the talent!

    Seriously: make a criticism of substance, not this red-herring nonsense and I will listen, otherwise forget it, this is just a pointless pissing match.

    At least I will argue against anti-vaxers when they make a worthless argument, but to defend someone who argues in fallacies just because they’re on your side looks childish and petty.

  88. I resent that… I’m an admin on RationalWiki.

    And in case you didn’t click the link in my name, I’m a layperson, so I don’t have the technical knowledge or expertise of PalMD, Tmtoulouse, or Ames. But I can pick apart your rhetoric and mock your arguments, which you admittedly make incredibly easy.

  89. I’m a RW admin too :-), although less active of late, so I have to take exception too. And RA, you may be a “layperson” on the science, but so am I… but don’t discount your intelligence or ability to review and balance the facts.

  90. invisible dragon · ·

    Wow. Just… wow. Since I’m a layperson who has always had more trust in science, medicine and (real) doctors than the quack du jour, I gotta say I’m very glad that I did not have internet access when my autistic child was growing up. I could have been sucked in by all this conspiracy blather and fake concern for my child’s future. As is, my child is in his twenties, a high school graduate and gainfully employed. He managed to go from a “wild child” who my in-laws insisted needed to be institutionalised, to a person who writes decent fiction, plays the guitar, carries on normal social relations and has a sense of humor about his limitations. All this with the full complement of childhood vaccinations, without special diets, without chelation, without illogical therapies and without being called a ‘monster’ by his parents in public forums. Imagine that.

    Anti-vax is inhumane.

  91. Ames (June 11, 2008 at 8:36 am) thinks the risk of measles is greater than the risk of autism.

    Wrong. Deal in facts Ames not rhetoric.

    In the UK it is 19 kids a day being diagnosed with ASD. I in 54 is a boy. 1 in 215 is a girl.

    We have 7000 a year diagsnosed and we will end up with 600,000 at present levels unless action is taken asap.

    You are 30 to 60 times more likely to be struck by lightning than to die from measles. See:-
    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clifford.g.miller/risks.html#Measles_-_The_Official_Statistics

    And here is the comparable chart for the US:-
    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clifford.g.miller/risks.html#Measles_Falling_Without_Vaccines_In_USA

  92. Yes, but dragon, consider this: If you had chelated and HBOTed and Luproned your child and seen those improvements, then that would be proof that quack alt med treatments really do work!

    The anti-vax crowd is cut from the same threadbare cloth as creationists. Eventually, they will go the same way, but until that blessed day there’s more writing and educating to do. Glad to have you, Ames and others on board!

  93. WRMartin · ·

    Woo detection technique:
    1. Cross eyes and look at comment. If formatting and capitalization is all screwy then you have a woo-meister.
    2. Uncross eyes and look for massive misspellings that look like a 4 year old got too close to the Internet and tried to copy the words phonetically then you have a woo-meister.

    In the past I had a tendency to dismiss potential profit-making ventures based solely on my personal opinion on the intelligence of the intended customers (AOL, HeadOn, etc.) but in this case I may be tempted to reverse my position and invest in the iron lung sector, the leg brace sector, the crutch sector, and cough drops – we’re going to need lots and lots of cough drops.

    Before anyone proposes not vaccinating themselves or their children they should be required to view all the images here then sign a paper stating they saw the images and have decided it is in their child’s best interest to not participate.
    http://www.vaccineinformation.org/photos/

    P.S. Where do you anti-vax nutters live? Please do NOT allow your children out in public without a big frickin’ sign so that the rest of us can run the other way.

  94. Boy, the crazies are here with all of their usual charm!

    Glad to hear a sensible voice. If David Kirby had an ounce of shame, he would have stopped flogging this horse long ago, but as long as he insists on trying to stretch out his meal ticket, it’s the least any of us can do to point out that he’s a menace to society, particularly children.

  95. Louisa wrote: “The problem with chelation is that if it works, you have to ask WHERE did the metals come from. And the fickle finger of fate points at vaccines.”

    Because as we all know, al and hg are never found outside of vaccines.

    You’re kidding, right? I know I am.

  96. Ames,

    It’s hilarious that even the PSC in the autism omnibus threw all these wingnuts under the bus by claiming that thimerosal may affect such a small subset of people that they cannot be detected by epi studies. So much for the autism epidemic. You might want to ask Kirby about moving the goal posts.

  97. I’m devastated that the blogger neglected to mention my repository of rebuttals of antivaccinationist lunacy. :-(

    Not really, but I’m glad to lend some of my tactical air support against the antivaccinationist hordes. ;-)

  98. Orac-fueled tactical air support inbound in 3…2…1…

  99. I notice that over there at Denialism Blog they seem to have little to offer except ad hom remarks aimed at the parents and the well credentialed scientists and doctors and journalists who support them. So I don’t think I’ll be wasting any more time over there.

    Don’t worry, we’ll follow you around. Always giving you the same amount of respect and consideration we give creationists, flat-earthers and holocaust-deniers.

    First we explain, THEN we deride. That you ignore the explanations is no excuse.

  100. Dragonfly · ·

    If the former, then did he really just happen to be—I don’t know—googling his own name at this particular time, and come across this post, or alternatively, is he paranoid enough to have others keep tabs on these sorts of conversations?

    Mr. Kirby has a phalanx of obsequious loons who do the Googling for him. (I use big words so the loons can’t follow).

  101. I thought adding a loons:nofollow tag was enough?

  102. barbie123 · ·

    David Kirby,

    I have a question for you: how much money have you made from your”noble” quest to somehow “prove” your theories about vaccines? (even where science shows absolutely no link, somehow (gasp!) you can! Amazing!)

    Just curious. A ballpark figure will do.

    Thanks.

  103. barbie123 · ·

    ps Any “movement” that hails Jenny McCarthy as one of their spokeswomen must be respectable, hey?

  104. Congratulations on an excellent blog post. The fact that so many scientifically illiterate anti-vaccine activists have descended on you for criticizing David Kirby suggests that you have hit the mark.

    The first comment repeats the LIE that autism prevalence was 1 in 10,000 in the 1970s. I challenge all the LIARS who repeat this statistic to provide one epidemiological study to back up this figure and to tell us why we should believe that one and reject these studies which all found at least 4 in 10000 for Kanner’s autism.
    – Lotter (1966; 1967a; 1967b) Middlesex, England [4.5 in 10000]
    – Brask (1972) Aarhus, Denmark 4.3 in 10000]
    – Wing & Gould (1979) Camberwell, London, England [4.9 in 10000]

    And in case you object that these are European studies there is always Treffert (1970) Wisconsin, USA [3.1 in 10000] This is not such a reliable study because as it is based solely on a retrospective analysis of computer printouts of children “seen by psychiatric or mental retardation agencies in the years 1962-67 and diagnosed as having ‘Childhood schizophrenia'” (Lorna Wing:European Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, Vol.2, Issue 2, April 1993, pp.61-74 )

  105. Kibitzer · ·

    tmtoulouse:
    “The wikipedia article lists dozens of studies over the last 10 years that have shown that vaccines are perfectly safe.”
    And you believe that to be reality…that reminds me of the story of the man who is in bed with ‘another woman’ when his wife walks in on them, and he says to her, “Are you going to believe the story I’m about to tell or the evidence of your lying eyes?” You – we – have been told a story about vaccines, tm, that is at odds with the reality of the matter. If you truly believe what you say, then you’re going to have a massive moment of cognitive dissonance when the bubble you have been inhabiting bursts. As it will. As it will.
    Ames:
    “If vaccines potentially cause autism, the answer is to research into it and fix it. The answer is *not* to stop vaccinating children.” Fair enough. But do you understand that if it hadn’t been for ‘the mercury moms’, and other parents who have been fighting for attention to be paid to this ASD matter, none of the really good research on it would have been done? And I am decidedly NOT referring to the ep. studies, which are notorious for manipulating. I am referring to the work of such as Prof Richard Deth, and Dr Russell Blaylock, MD (& neurosurgeon, Ret.); the list goes on, of research that is uncovering the fact that ‘one size does not fit all’ – that because of their efforts, we are finding out that kids who are predisposed to be damaged by vaccines can be screened, one, and two, that even in general, it has not been a good idea to put such as mercury and aluminum and MSG in vaccines. Such is science: to learn from our experience, and move on.

  106. barbie123 · ·

    Hi David Kirby,

    Still waiting for an answer…..any profit motive regarding these theories of yours is certainly relevant to this discussion, wouldn’t you agree?

  107. we are finding out that kids who are predisposed to be damaged by vaccines can be screened

    We all know where this is going.

    Pray tell, would this be PID?

  108. Ms. Clark · ·

    Holy cow. David Kirby or one of his fellow bloggers on the clown blog must have put out a message for all the their antivaccine psychos to descend on this blog.

    Barbie123, Kirby never answers questions. He’ll never talk about the proceeds from his book or how much he’s being paid for being the antivaccine anti-CDC poster boy. He never talks about his career as a PR man so we won’t ask if he’s a hired PR man now. The answer seems obvious enough to me. He’s a PR flak for the antivax whackjobs, otherwise why would he have specifically invited Sherri Nakken (100% big time antivaxer) to his speech at the parliament in the UK? Surely not to educate her in moderation. Sherri said on the antivax EoHarm Yahoo! group that she understands that David Kirby has to play the part of the moderate in public so he can get an antivaccine foothold into people’s minds.

    I’d like to know who is supporting David Kirby, but I suppose it would take a congressional inquiry to find out. I certainly wouldn’t expect Kirby to tell the truth about anything, much less who his masters are.

  109. Just askin' · ·

    Ms Clark,

    not to play the conspiracy theorist here–I don’t have 1% of the experience that many who have responded here have—but,

    Wasn’t Mr. Kirby invited by NYU professor Mary Holland, who blogs on the same place as David Kirby? Aren’t many of the respondents who jumped on this blog also big time regulars on the…what did you call it, “Clown Blog”?

    It looks clear to me that the Clowns are afraid of another good blogger looking into the vaccine/autism myth.

    Kirby will address the recent case in US Vaccine Court in which the government conceded that vaccines induced autism in one little girl

    Could someone ask at the talk who wrote the above? Because, legally speaking, this is false. I’d hate to think that a lawyer wrote that, or even did this with Mr. Kirby’s permission considering that he has hosted the statement by the HHS that this is not the case.

    Considering how quickly David Kirby jumped down Paul Offit’s throat for making a much more minor mistake of calling the concession a decision, one would think that he would be interested in correcting this falsehood himself.

  110. Thanks to all commenters. Again I’m not going to mix it up in this debate a ton, but I hope you all read other articles too :-)

  111. Maurine Meleck · ·

    why even bother exchanging barbs with Lautrec?
    He’s short on answers .

    Maurine M

  112. This discussion seems to have gotten out of hand to the point where I don’t know what to add. I’m just flying wing support for Orac. You might want to take a look at my commentary on the autism “epidemic” as artifact at http://epiwonk.com/?p=38, although I dread the possible influx of woo.

  113. Tsu Dho Nimh · ·

    I would like to throw some fuel on the bonfire … have you looked at the vaccinations given in Mexico? It’s quite simple there – no shots, no school, not even kindergarten or group child care.

    They start with 2 vaccines at birth, the BCG and polio. They have a 97% coverage rate for children 1-4 and a national plan for immunizing. A measles epidemic in the 1980s that made 80,000 people sick and killed over 6,000 babies made them quite fanatical about prevention.

    Horror of horrors, they not only give the equivalent of the MMR, they have a 5-way vaccine that is the eqiuvalent of HiB, HepB and the DTP.

    The butcher’s bill for this onslaught: Mexico has (based on estimates by Ministry of Health) 2 to 6 autistic children per 1000 … as opposed to the claimed 1 in 150 here.

  114. 1 in 15o is 6.7 autistic children per 1000. So what’s the difference, Tsu Dho Nimh?

  115. Wow – ONLY a hundred and seventeen posts…?

    The anti-vaccine nuts must be slipping.

    Ames, if you are interested in blogs w. more scientific info and debunking of the autism scares, then apart from Orac’s and Mike Stanton’s (Action for Autism) blogs, another good one is Left Brain Right Brain, while scientist’s blogs that sometimes cover vaccine madness and autism are A Photon in the Darkness and Neurologica

    Finally, the Neurodiversity autism blog might interest you as a law student – it’s proprietor, librarian and “citizen journalist” Kathleen Seidel, has recently had some trouble with a notorious anti-vaccine-suit lawyer – instructive in a lot of ways .

    We recently had the dubious pleasure of Mr Kirby here in the UK. Thankfully his visit went largely ignored, although several of the people now haunting your comments thread were there to pay homage. The large (not to say rabid) reaction to your blog suggests the anti-vaccine hysteria is still running full-bore in the States. We have our hard-core anti-vaccine crazies in the UK too, but luckily our UK minor celebrities seem to be too busy getting cosmetic surgery to morph into anti-vaccine activists. And we don’t have an equivalent to Larry King Live.

  116. WRMartin · ·

    Epi,
    A couple of possibilities:
    1. Tsu was held back in primary school when they covered those evil fractions.
    2. If s/he can’t wow us with facts s/he will woo us with BS.
    I’m going with my gut here and choosing #1.

    Can someone explain the arithmetic Clifford is quoting above (I’m in IT):

    In the UK it is 19 kids a day being diagnosed with ASD. I in 54 is a boy. 1 in 215 is a girl.

    19/day.
    1/54 = male. = 0.35 males per day?
    1/215 = female. = 0.089 females per day?

    Something doesn’t add up. Or I need to get back to coding and leave this to you folks.

    It has been said many times before but is still relevant:
    The plural of anecdote is not data.

  117. Wow. I never know which posts are going to bring out the militia, but…wow!

    Suzanne said:

    Denialism Blog – amatures at best.

    First, I’m a professional at some things. Second, I am an amateur at many others. (Of, couse, Im a creativ speler too, so…).

    Chelation only had one death in PA which was at the fault of the doctor. It has been performed 1,000’s of times and yet the incidence of death due to the actual procedure is ZERO. Fact is, some child have found the “cure”, while others are no better than before they spent the money.

    I’ve been searching for an apt analogy…perhaps being blindfolded and firing a low caliber pistol from long range at the patient with only 2 chambers loaded…most patients will do just fine, but why the hell are you risking it?

    Really, we don’t make this stuff up as we go.

  118. Pwned!

    Really, what did I ever do on this blog before PalMD commented? Glad to have your support, buddy.

  119. Those of us old enough to remember a time before routine vaccinations for childhood illness most emphatically do not want to go back to the not-so-good old days.

    Those who forget the past, deserve to be stricken with the same diseases they are so blithely wishing on helpless children.

  120. How about “running across the road blindfolded”?

  121. WRMartin: I’ve been trying to figure out Clifford’s statement about autism rates in boys and girls. My conclusion: We’re all worrying about the wrong things. According to Clifford, there’s an epidemic of either hermaphroditism, or children without reproductive organs, or both in the UK.

  122. Ho hum. That would hardly be any weirder than many of the other things Clifford believes, EpiWonk.

    *Still laughing at PalMD’s blindfolded sharp-shooter (not) analogy*

  123. Just a technical correction, but I’ve noticed a number of comments along the lines of “use facts, not rhetoric.” Unless you’re presenting a table of numbers, by definition all of us are using rhetoric—the art of persuasion.

    Good rhetoric includes facts. Of the three modes of persuasion, logos (logic, which includes empiric evidence) is considered more powerful than ethos (credibility) or pathos (appeals to emotion).

  124. More Virchow-bell · ·

    Ames, good for you. Always nice to see someone fight the good fight against antivax twaddle. As you may realize, arguing against these people is like stepping in gum, or a less savory substance excreted from a canine rectum.

  125. Ms. Clark · ·

    Listen, guys, you have to be careful with describing treatments and then comparing them to firing a gun in the direction of an autistic kid while blindfolded. You never know when one of the autism “biomed” geniuses will take it for a real cure and try it out on their kid. Knowing the caliber (heh) of the doctors they patronize, I’m sure they could find one who would try it out on some kids and claim that the survivors were cured of their autism almost 100% of them.

  126. Ms. Clark · ·

    I found Tsu Do Nimh’s comment fascinating.
    http://acandidworld.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/vaccineautism-alarmists-on-the-march-nyu-law/#comment-827

    I wonder how much mercury is in the Mexican vaccine schedule for infants to pre-schoolers, not mention aluminum and ground up monkey guts and whatever else the antivaxers have dreamed up for this week.

    You know who might know the answer? David Kirby! He works (part time?) for some agency of the United Nations, or he did, maybe that was just to fill in in between his gigs at chiropractor conventions. Surely David knows all about vaccine schedules all over the world, or maybe he’s too busy blaming Chinese people for mercury plumes and horrible and unwashed yet over-vaxed Mexican immigrants who must be keeping those numbers of autistic kids in California artificially raised since they took out all that thimerosal.

  127. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Dear Ames; Thanks for the kind words….Dear RA..Pretend the caps are lower case if it helps you feel better..I posted in caps to emphasize Tm’s complete ignorance of chelation therapy…I ask tm to let us know if he has ever personally witnessed a child undergoing chelation therapy…Tm writes about autistic children being “injected with dangerous chemicals intravenously”…That is not how the procedure works..My child has been on chelation therapy on a daily basis for six years now and she has never been injected in any way, shape, or form, and her chelation therapy has never used any dangerous chemicals. There are many people posting here who know precisely how my daughter’s chelation therapy works..Tm obviously has no clue how most chelationists choose to chelate autistic children..He has never personally viewed an autistic child undergoing chelation therapy..If he had any idea how the procedure actually works he would not be spouting his ignorant nonsense about ” children being injected with dangerous chemicals..”..Does any autism parent besides me care to educate TM on what methods are used to chelate autistic children? Dear Mary. You pose an interesting question which we will never be able to answer..All I can tell you is this…Our neighbor’s boy is six months older than our daughter…He is quite severely autistic and was non-verbal until just before his seventh birthday…His mother and grandmother reported to us that they had put him on chelation therapy around his seventh birthday and he had begun to speak within a month after beginning chelation….My daughter’s teachers also commented to us on the boy’s verbal progress at that time… The boy’s mother and grandmother wrote me a letter giving me information on chelation therapy and the name of the boy’s chelationist…We took the advice of the mother and grandmother, took our non-verbal autistic daughter to see the boy’s specialist, put her on the same therapy, and got the same results within the month…What you have done in our situation? ..P.S..It would be interesting to know if either Tm or his buddy RadioActiveMan are parents of autistic children themselves..I suspect they are not….Both of their posts remind me of the old adage..”Those that can…do! Those that can’t….teach!”….So whats up Tm & Ra..? Do either one of you have have an autistic child that you can call your own? Have either one of you ever participated in giving chelation therapy to an autistic child? I will be looking forward to your answers! P.S..If either Tm or Ra would like to know how chelation therapy is given to autistic children through the LifeSpring Partners For Health Clinic all either one of them has to do is confess their ignorance and I will be happy to provide them with the details on how chelation therapy is really administerd to autistic children…What say you Tm? What say you Ra?

  128. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Mary..I meant to ask you “What would you have done in our situation? Thanks very much for posing an interesting question….I hope that you and your friends and family will never go through the agony of not being able to verbally communicate with your child..I would not wish that situation on anybody..not even Mr LaTrec or Mr RadioInactive…

  129. The conspiracy theory about autism and its relationship to vaccines — magical thinking — is astounding to me and represents an anti-scientific movement. This movement needs to be met with swift reaction from the scientific community. The science that people like Kirby employ is fringe science published in bogus journals like Medical Hypotheses that have a few hundred readers at most, and propagated by professional witnesses in legal suits against the government. Why NYU law school wants to invite someone like him to speak, as if he is an expert in anything, is beyond me. I trust the NYU law students and professors are smart enough to see through his lies, obfuscations, and abuse of scientific language.

  130. Tsu Dho Nimh · ·

    Epi –
    The Mexican children get more vaccines earlier than US children. They have higher vaccine coverage in the first 4 years than in the US. Therefore, if the vaccines = autism people are right, those children should have a higher rate of autism, but they don’t.

  131. friend of the child · ·

    So this subset group from history was one in five hundred with pinks,the mer. powders were not as toxic as the inorganic form, that thimerosal will turn into . Not to mention the route of exposure And according to Dr. Burbachers
    NIH paid for study that came back to bite the CDC in in the As# his findings were that the inorganic form stay’s in the brain doing damage . The children in the 90’s recieved in one day a bolus dose of 162.5 micrograms with the CDC runaway schedule ,but not all kids.
    How can any of you parent assassans denie the
    damage done, and better yet how can you live with your selves ? except that you have no conscience what so ever. Just this week a
    person from oklahoma that works for the state
    was defending chelation, for he was on a team
    for lead poisonings in children and told me that
    he has first hand knowlege that chelation works well, he has seen it. So with history saying Pinks disease was aratacated very quickly and I assume with out any deaths or history would have recorded it. It doe’s seem that some of you parent assassans could be related to the fools that denied that pinks was mercury poisoning.
    It is now well documented as total fact what happened to the children then, and it will soon
    be very apparent what happen to our children.

    There was a subset group of 1 – 500 children
    that had complacations of pinks

    not all children who got mercury powders
    ended up with pinks

    This seems like an arguement most of us are confronted with , how come all children don’t have autism that get vaccines? this disease
    from history pretty much answers that
    question

    seems the same subset is around today.
    except maybe the amount of toxin and added multipile toxins and synergy effects or
    the route of exposure causing the subset
    to climb to 1 – 150

    like the morons today fighting the the parents of mercury poisoned children

    This could be todays headlines The resistance
    to the evidence of mercury poisoning is typical of resistance to new medical knowledge and declined only when the opponents and sceptics grew old and disappeared from the scene.

    “Meanwhile, the cause having been
    identified and accepted, pink disease disappeared ” and history tell us how
    C H E L A T I O N

    Seems they had idots and junk scientist back then too

    This honestly could be todays headlines
    and some day it will be.

    The rise and fall of vaccine induced autisim

    A piece of very important history relating to a
    subset of vulnerable mercury sensitive children
    It doe’s seem that those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat history.

    The rise and fall of pink disease.

    Dally A.

    Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine, London.

    This paper explores the social and medical history and context of pink
    disease (acrodynia), a serious disease of infants and young children
    that baffled the medical world during the first half of the twentieth
    century until it was shown to be caused by mercury poisoning. In the
    English-speaking world the commonest source of the mercury was teething
    powders, which were widely available and advertised with increasing
    sophistication. Efforts to control them (such as the BMJ’s campaign against
    ‘Secret Remedies’) were as yet unsuccessful. The article discusses the
    social conditions that influenced the existence and recognition of pink
    disease, the delay in finding its cause, the way in which it was
    explained as a virus infection or nutritional deficiency and why it seldom
    occurred outside the teething period. It discusses both professional and
    lay attitudes to health and diseases during the early twentieth century
    and provides a model of how the disease developed in a specific social
    setting and how the medical profession attempted to deal with it within
    the limitations of contemporary professional thought. The resistance
    to the evidence of mercury poisoning is typical of resistance to new
    medical knowledge and declined only when the opponents and sceptics grew
    old and disappeared from the scene. Meanwhile, the cause having been
    identified and accepted, pink disease disappeared, but its consequences
    emerged much later, in an unexpected quarter, as a cause of male
    infertility.

    Publication Types:
    Historical Article

  132. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Hi Al..Do you have an autistic child? Does Tm or RadioInActive have an autistic child?.Or are all of us autism-parents being lectured by people who have never been in our situation? People who can….do!..People who can’t…lecture!

  133. friend of the child · ·

    Albert just where in the heck is your science here, where they the CDC seems to be stacking the deck just before a IOM meeting ???

    If this is your hero’s of science may God help all of us, in case of a biological attack. For they seem to have a hard time with the telling the truth

    This is the proof the CDC bought the
    IOM but as of recently we have learned that the IOM advised the CDC to seek counsel.

    Here is some of your science and professionals
    at work

    Dr. McCormick, for example, in speaking of the CDC, noted that the
    agency
    “wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a
    population
    basis.” (See Exhibit 1 at page 33).

    later she says what walt wants walt generally
    gets.

    Walter A. Orenstein, MD was the head of the vaccine commission

    This was actually what they said in their minutes

    “We’ve got a dragon by the tail here,” states a committee member in the
    transcript. “At the end of the line, what we know is – and I agree –
    that
    the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely
    people
    are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of
    that
    will be. We are kind of caught in a trap. How we work our way out of
    the
    trap, I think, is the charge.”

    Notice how they are justifying lieing for the greater good

    Just how do you, poison a child for the greater good anyway

    When byronchild asked CDC spokesperson Curtis Allen for a copy of the
    contract that would detail the agreement between the IOM and the CDC,
    Allen
    stated that the contract would be available only in a heavily
    “redacted” or
    blacked-out format.

    The IOM stated “no comment” to byronchild about the leaked transcript
    or its
    use in the pending civil court case.

    If you can condone these lie’s and deciet
    then you are either stupid or a paid pharma
    parent assassin

  134. J Sands · ·

    @Suzanne Arena:

    I too am an amateur at many things, but at least I understand and know how to use the scientific method. (And how to use a spell checker too!)

    Apparently you don’t.

    J

  135. Listen, guys, you have to be careful with describing treatments and then comparing them to firing a gun in the direction of an autistic kid while blindfolded. You never know when one of the autism “biomed” geniuses will take it for a real cure and try it out on their kid.

    Ms Clark, nominated for Post Of The Day.

  136. Tim:

    I am not Joseph, but since there is no evidence whatsoever about Jesus being the son of God, I feel confident about having an opinion on it.

    I do not live on Loch Ness lake, but since there is no evidence whatsoever of a monster living in it, I feel confident about having an opinion on it.

    I’m not even going to go into all the logical fallacies you have displayed. I do urge you to research “confirmation bias”.

    Also, the plural of “anecdote” is not “data”.

    Friend of the child:

    I try to read the tripe you cut and paste, but it makes my head hurt. Please work on your formatting and take a remedial course in English. You will find that people will be much more receptive to your arguments when they can make sense of them.

    Tsu:

    Nitpicking aside, I think everyone got your point. The statistics were new to me. And another nail in the coffin.

  137. I’d like to thank you guys for introducing me to RationalWiki. I see you have an an entry on “Conspiracy theory” at http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Conspiracy_theory. Note that all of the comments of “friend of the child” are Conspiracy-Theory type arguments, a common ploy of the anti-vaccinationist. You should add this to your List of Scientific Conspiracy Theories. It seems that every scientist who has concluded that vaccines are a good thing, or that there’s no causal association between vaccines and autism, throughout the entire world, is a paid agent of Big Pharma. This includes the authors of about 1200 peer-reviewed papers on vaccine safety published in 2007 and the authors of about 500 such papers so far in 2008 and innumerable scientists from the past. Poor dupes.

    (Tsu Dho Nimh: Sorry, I misunderstood your comment.)

    Yikes! I just realized that I’m part of the conspiracy! Where’s my pay off? Why am I typing on this noisy five-year old PC?

  138. Epi: your check is in the mail. As is mine, I’ve been told.

  139. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Stu. Do you have any standing in the autism community?..

  140. friend of the child · ·

    StuV Please answer to the dishonesty of the IOM,
    since they are always quoted as the prestigious
    non governmental agency that found no link.
    Caught in a trap, Just how doe’s that equate to
    no link

    Seems to me the statement, the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely
    people
    are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of that will be

    they seem to be trying to justify their dishonesty
    by saying that the vaccine program may suffer if they tell the truth. But the other side of this coin
    is knowingly poisoning a child. So you self professed intellectuals think it’s OK to poison
    a child for the greater good. my friends I suggest
    you look up the word conspiracy as this fits it perfectly, definition of conspiracy

    (Law) An agreement, manifesting itself in words or deeds, by which two or more persons confederate to do an unlawful act,

    the last I checked it is unlawful to knowingly poison a child.

    “We’ve got a dragon by the tail here,” states a committee member in the
    transcript. “At the end of the line, what we know is – and I agree –
    that
    the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely
    people
    are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of
    that
    will be. We are kind of caught in a trap. How we work our way out of
    the
    trap, I think, is the charge.”

    Notice how they are justifying lying for the greater good

    Just how do you, poison a child for the greater good anyway

    When byronchild asked CDC spokesperson Curtis Allen for a copy of the
    contract that would detail the agreement between the IOM and the CDC,
    Allen
    stated that the contract would be available only in a heavily
    “redacted” or
    blacked-out format.

  141. (an Orac reader who heard the sound of the guns and decided to march to them)
    Apparently the tons of well-constructed, properly conducted and peer reviewed studies weigh precisely nothing compared to David Kirby’s samazidat book full of quote mines, misquotes and complete bloody lies. Apparently no amount of epidemiology on the subject which indicates no link between vaccines and autism weighs nothing compared to Jenny McCarthy’s Google University degree and Jim Carrey’s “what, am I stupid” quip. Apparently the argument that “how can you be an expert, when you don’t have an autistic child” canard outweighs years of study and practice in the subject under discussion.
    I have great compassion for parents of autistic children, and even more so for the children who have an autism spectrum disorder.
    I truly do. You have a challenge before you which few other parents have. But blaming the vaccine, when there is no evidence for it is merely shaking your fist at the boogeyman.
    And no, I have no sympathy at all for David Kirby, Rashid Buttar or others who profit from parents desperately seeking some form of help for their children.

  142. friend of the child · ·

    You guys seem to have no eyes or cannot read
    I have proven the CDC is committing fraud and
    destroying VSD data and you think it’s OK.

    the only person that could not see the true terrorism here in a governmental agency
    lying to the American public is some one
    doing a job for said agency or big Pharma

    I hope that it was worth your soul, that is if you
    have one left.

  143. Tim:

    You have no idea how much I resent the “do you have an autistic child line?” line. I’m (mildly) autistic, for heaven’s sake, and it annoys the crap out of me when others assume that I have no personal experience with it to speak of.

    My parents didn’t force me into specialized diet plans or alternative medicine therapies. The best “treatment” I ever had was the infinitely patient teacher of my “Special Ed.” class.

  144. Mr. Kirby: How does a travel writer turn into an “expert” on the issues of vaccines and autism? Why is it that since thimerosal was removed from pediatric vaccines (the influenza vaccine is available thimerosal-free) and pretty much gone from the stocks six years ago, is the number of kids with autism still rising?

    And will you guys please make up your mind as to which vaccine causes autism!!!! Is it the now non-existent thimerosal in vaccines or the MMR (which never had thimerosal and has been used in the USA since 1971!)? Come on, tell what documentation shows that one, or the other or even both have an impact on autism diagnosis!

    Or at least tell us why the number of kids with mental retardation are going down at about or more than the rate of autism going up.

    Come on, tell us how and why these vaccines are so much more dangerous than the diseases! Show us that the DTaP is worse than tetanus (which there is no herd immunity for), diphtheria or pertussis (about a dozen babies a year die from pertussis) than the disease. Tell us exactly what “toxin” in the DTaP are worse than tetanospasmin (also known as spasmogenic toxin), diphtheria toxin and the pertussis toxin.

    And for those from the UK: explain exactly how the MMR is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. The MMR vaccine now used in the UK was approved for use in the USA in 1971. It is not the same as the one used in Japan, India or the Ukraine (sorry, Ms. Dachel, but I don’t believe that Wisconsin imports its vaccines from either the Ukraine or India, there is just a limit to outsourcing…. if you are going to yell “oh noes… the vaccine caused this catastrophe”, make sure it is not an apples to oranges comparison). Between the years 1987 and 1991 there was an upsurge of measles in the USA (munged URL, sorry):
    w w w .ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15106092

    Then, just in 2006 there was an outbreak of less than 3000 cases of mumps which left four people deaf and around two dozen young people sterile:
    w w w .
    cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5520a4.htm

    Well, as for rubella… it and measles, plus Hib and a few other things used to be big contributors to children with mental retardation:
    archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/160/3/302

    Now, give us the real scientific documentation that the vaccines cause bigger problems than the dieseases.

    Also, keep in mind that there is a new Internet Law (like Godwin and Poe): Scopie’s Law:
    “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately.”

    That obviously has the optional extra of …”and gets you laughed out of the room.”

    From:
    w w w .badscience.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5240&p=90463&hilit=scopie%27s+law#p90463

  145. What’s “Whale.to”?

  146. I forgot to add:

    Mr. Miller, there is no autism pandemic. There is an interesting intersection of the internet and changing of diagnostic criteria for autism. I have a very speech/language disabled 19 year old son who has a history of seizures. When he was three years old (in 1991) I was assured that he was not autistic. It was beginning part of his last year of high school in late 2006 that the school psychologist mentioned that he might have Asperger’s (though at that time, getting an autism diagnosis would actually cause him to LOSE certain services, the school had a special Asperger’s program). Um, no. He has a specific speech and language disorder that was a result of his seizures. The last major one occurring during a time when he what is now a vaccine preventable disease when he was 15 months old.

    Mr. Miller (and the rest of you) some books to read to help you understand the issues:
    Unstrange Minds by Roy Richard Grinker (there is a new UK edition coming out!)

    Not Even Wrong by Paul Collins

    No Time for Jello by Berneen Bratt (which should be read by any parent when their child is diagnosed with anything out of the norm! )

    Vaccine! by Arther Allen

    Vaccinated by Paul Offit

    (by the way, you do not have to buy the books… most cities have these wonderful institutions called “public libraries”. This is how I read all of the listed books… though I do donate to the library foundation, which lets me into their used book sale an evening early to support my book habit… which I share with my daughter…. who was the first in the family to get the newborn HepB, and since she is the smartest of the bunch I figure it did her some good!).

  147. Radioactive afikomen said “What’s “Whale.to”?”

    Well, aren’t you the naive one!

    It is the website of the long time Usenet loon John Scudamore:
    groups.google.gm/group/talk.politics.medicine/msg/9d7e671101be5278

    This is a guy who claims he burned his bum on satanic black lines. Many of the anti-vax types will link back to the whale.to website thinking it would be a great reference. Only, it is not… because John is stuck in another century, and well, has never recovered from his use of psychedelics. Just yesterday a clueless fool tried to use a whale.to link on Orac’s Respectful Indolence blog.

    (by the way, several of us are refugees from the now pretty much defunct Usenet world… which is where I first encountered both Scudamore and his whale.to site, and Orac)

  148. Thank you for explaining, HCN.

  149. Finishing last comment: I appreciate it.

  150. The UK’s Committee on the Safety of Medicines, the World Health Organization, the European Agency for the Evaluation of Medicinal Products, Canada’s National Advisory Committee on Immunisation, Germany’s STIKO (Standing Committee on Vaccination), A Cochrane Systematic Review, at least ten other in-depth peer-reviewed published reviews by groups of independent scientists, and the evil IOM have all concluded that there is NO causal association between vaccines and autism. It really is beyond rational belief that all these organizations and scientists have sold their souls to Big Pharma.

  151. Okay, Radioactive afikomen… I hope I did not come off as too rude in regard to “whale.to”. It is often used as the reference of those who wish to “expose” issues with medicine.

    I had relative who I saw only at family gatherings who was new to the internet and would send me all sorts of warnings on this and that. Most of them were debunked at Skopes (an urban legend website). Then she sent me a warning about vaccinations with a link to whale.to! Since I had been on the Internet and Usenet (since the early 1990s), I told her exactly what I thought of that kind of information.

    She stop sending me Internet warnings.

  152. Hm? I didn’t take you as rude at all, HCN.

  153. To Tim and others who insist personal anecdotes prove the case…

    I live in a town with hundreds of children, the vast, vast majority of whom are vaccinated and I am aware of one or two who are considered autistic. In fact, there are millions of children around the world who are fully vaccinated and who show no signs of autism whatsoever.

    If personal anecdotes carry any weight then my story proves vaccination does not cause autism in the same way your own personal experience proves the efficacy of chelation against autism. If you don’t accept that conclusion, then you are arguing with yourself.

  154. Mary Parsons · ·

    TZ – you are mistaken in your assumption that those whose opinions differ from yours have no family experience of autism or non-verbal children.

    I wouldn’t offer health advice to somebody even if I knew something of their medical records, family circumstances etc.

  155. Ubu Walker · ·

    Ames: The lesson you should walk away from this ‘controversial’ blog post is four-fold:
    1) Being able to spot and counter conspiracy theorist nutjobs who spout pseudo-scientific nonsense is an essential skill for a lawyer.
    2) You can find an expert witness that is willing to say almost anything.
    3) Lawyers are not trained in science, and are easily duped by supposed experts and quacks, so understanding science and mathematics will give you a leg up over other attorneys.
    4) There is no link between autism and vaccines, no matter what denialists claim on the internet. Whenever people start making appeals to chiropractors, alternative medicine, and personal allegories about their kids having disease X, ignore them. They really don’t deserve a forum.

  156. I see Clifford Miller has graced us with an uintervention displaying all his usual statistical smoke and mirrors. If he is not handwringing, he is handwaving.

    It is worth correcting some of his lies. He says “You are 30 to 60 times more likely to be struck by lightning than to die from measles”, a claim he makes because he extrapolates the fall in UK measles mortality from 1920 until 1980 until the line reaches zero. What astounding and deliberate stupidity! I am only surprised he doesn’t extrapolate further, and say that by 2010 we will see 5 thousand extra births per year, all because of nonexistent measles!

    Of course measles mortality has declined – because of better health care, and, dare I say it, vaccination. If he looks closely at the detailed measles data, he would see that the natural mortality from measles had plateaued until driven down by the introduction of vaccination, and measles notifications themselves had plateaued at 500 cases per year until vaccine was introduced in 1968 and they then dropped to 80 per year. When MMR was introduced in 1988, it drove the measles notifications down to under 10 per year (that is until the vaccine rate dropped off, courtesy of people like Wakefield, and the cases are rising again, and this includes one death so far).

    Now Clifford Miller knows all this very well, but deliberately manipulates charts and statistics to attempt to make the impact of vaccination vanish into thin air. This is unethical and immoral, and for a lawyer who should have high standards of probity and ethics to do this is beyond my comprehension. (Ahhh, I understand why now….. you see he is the main beneficiary of all the legal cases in the UK from people claiming vaccine damage. He turns in a very good income from it too, so anything that will enhance his chances of success in court he regards as fair game. Just let’s ignore the truth, and forget the misery of the kids with measles, and the deaths that result shall we?)

    How does he sleep at night, I wonder? Does counting the number of crippled kids with measles encephalitis crawling over a fence help him nod off, or is it counting the hundreds of thousands of pounds he has earned through his legal fees on vaccine cases?

  157. That assumes he has a sense of guilt.

  158. I’d like to thank you guys for introducing me to RationalWiki. I see you have an an entry on “Conspiracy theory” at http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Conspiracy_theory. Note that all of the comments of “friend of the child” are Conspiracy-Theory type arguments, a common ploy of the anti-vaccinationist. You should add this to your List of Scientific Conspiracy Theories. It seems that every scientist who has concluded that vaccines are a good thing, or that there’s no causal association between vaccines and autism, throughout the entire world, is a paid agent of Big Pharma.

    Indeed, EpiWonk. There’s even a name for this particular bit of conspiracy-mongering. It’s called the Pharma Shill Gambit. Of course, I wish I were getting paid big bucks by big pharma to rebut the misinformation and pseudoscience of antivaccinationists. Heck, I’d quit my day job, the better to sit around in my underwear in front of my computer all day and do battle against the brave souls fighting big pharma, the CDC, the FDA, and the Illuminati. Although I do get paid a nominal sum from Seed Magazine as a ScienceBlogger (which, by the way, is totally fantastic; I never dreamed anyone would pay me anything for my little hobby), alas anything resembling buckets of money. It does, however, more than pay my monthly broadband bill every month and leave some beer money left over, and that’s a good thing. Sadly, for the foreseeable future I won’t be quitting my day job and will be struggling with the rest of the physician-scientists to try to do good enough science to persuade funding agencies to continue to provide my laboratory with money to continue all while taking the best care of patients that I can.

  159. It really is beyond rational belief that all these organizations and scientists have sold their souls to Big Pharma.

    Who said there was anything “rational” about antivaccinationist conspiracy-mongering?

  160. David Kirby,
    I have a question for you but I can’t come to New York to ask you.

    Will you explain why you support Kathleen Seidel abusing autistic children by lying about the scientists who are curing autism? It seems to me that this child abuse is not withiin the scope of the first amendment.

  161. Richard Eis · ·

    I’m confused by the connection between anti-vax and chelation advocates. Since chelation is done all the time and vaccination is only done once or so then surely if the TOXINS were from there, the chelation would only be needed once.
    In other words, surely the need for constant chelation shows that it isn’t the vaccines at all? So why do they get along so well?

  162. Tsu Dho Nimh · ·

    Do you have an autistic child? Does Tm or RadioInActive have an autistic child?.Or are all of us autism-parents being lectured by people who have never been in our situation?

    The continued “authority by situation” baffles me. Does anyone think a homicide detective must be the family member of a murder victim in order to investigate or evaluate evidence? Does anyone insist that an arson investigator have had her house burn down?

    And why is it that “authority by situation” claimants are not always visible … they are content to leave the research on SARS and bird flu and Hanta virus to the experts, but the pros aren’t good enough whenit comes to non-contagious conditions.

  163. Let’s see. You expose a few billion children to a compound that protects the vast majority from a known and well established harm. Some small
    subset of have a problem. A bunch of nuts assume that the compound caused the problem.

    But this aside the bigger question is why is the compound to blame for the deficient nature of a few defective children.

    And why do you want to withhold the undeniably beneficial compound to the great many children who have and will benefit because you have insisted on producing defective children.

    You have produced a defective child and now you want to blame it on someone. Why not just take responsibility for your actions. Why do you so hate other people’s normal children so much that you feel the need to keep them from something that is undeniably beneficial to normal children.

    Fact: Autism happens.
    Fact: Unvaccinated kids have autism.
    Fact:Removal of mercury from vaccines has not changed the rate of autism.

    Fact: Kids with autism still develop. Just at a slower rate than normal
    Fact: Kids with autism who don’t undergo chelation therapy develop. Kids who do undergo chelation therapy develop.

    Fact: Unvaccinated kids tend to get sick more often and suffer far more serious side effects, many of which are more serious than autism, than vaccinated kids.

  164. Tsu Dho Nimh:

    EXACTLY! But you know, anecdotal evidence is everything in life and science. I mean come on! don’t you know that you have to have been raped to know that it is painful and wrong?

  165. Richard, you asked “I’m confused by the connection between anti-vax and chelation advocates. Since chelation is done all the time and vaccination is only done once or so then surely if the TOXINS were from there, the chelation would only be needed once.
    In other words, surely the need for constant chelation shows that it isn’t the vaccines at all? So why do they get along so well?”

    Chelation is promoted by quacks. Although the compounds used in chelation are dirt cheap, chelation costs a lot. The more chelations the quacks can sqeeze out of their gullible victims over the years, the more $$ they make. Quacks will always be quacks- unscrupulous money grabbers, willing to continue pushing their particular brand of woo for as long as humanly possible.

  166. Oh crap, John Best has just slimed his way over here.

    For the uninitiated, do a scienceblogs.com limited Google search on John Best. He’s the Last Of The mercury-autism Mohicans.

  167. Tim:

    Please research “argument from authority”.

    FotC:

    I see you tried to reply, but I can’t make out anything beyond “StuV”.

  168. Ane C Dote · ·

    Clifford Miller wrote

    “tmtoulouse. You are a bit thin on the ground with your “tons” of double blinded placebo controlled randomised clinical trials of vaccine safety. The 1986 Peltola study is not a placebo controlled trial. The “placebo” was another vaccine of unknown safety profile…..

    …That is the point. Not one of the vaccines in use has ever been subjected to a proper safety trial….

    …When you can come up with proper safety studies let us know.”

    Well tmtoulouse – we are still waiting (but not holding our breath)

  169. Richard Eis · ·

    -Chelation is promoted by quacks…etc…-

    Yes that would explain why the chelators would latch onto this community since they have an obsession with TOXINS…but if chelation works as these antivaccers say then by their own admission the toxicity of the environment is continuous and far more than a one off dose of vaccine. No antivacciner should therefore be into chelation. I would like to know how they reconcile this.

  170. Stu V,
    I didn’t come here to argue with any of you pharma shills. I just want to know why Kirby sold out every autistic child by agreeing with a woman who wants to see them spend their entire lives suffering.

    I don’t like people from my side of this argument selling out my son.

  171. Always nice to find a new website driven good science.

    Tsu Dho Nimh, can you provide the citations for the Mexican measles info. HCN, has been a big help to me working on a simple mmr discussion and the Mexico info is very interesting to me.

  172. But John, didn’t you already magically heal your son?

  173. Ane, you’re lying and you damned well know it.

    PubMed currently has 6823 entries on “vaccine safety”. Go look, we’ll wait.

  174. Ane C Dote · ·

    “Ane, you’re lying …”

    ??
    Do please explain StuV. Did tmtoulouse come back with a reply that I have missed?

  175. Yes, by all means, ignore the statement.

  176. Ane, “…That is the point. Not one of the vaccines in use has ever been subjected to a proper safety trial….”

    Boy, talk about not passing the smell test.

  177. friend of the child · ·

    StuV you said “Yes, by all means, ignore the statement”

    why should anybody answer you, you still have not answered what I wrote on the IOM

    StuV Please answer to the dishonesty of the IOM,
    since they are always quoted as the prestigious
    non governmental agency that found no link.

  178. Hey all. I’m kind of short on cash at the moment. According to many of the anti-vac folks here, you can get big bucks for defending vaccinations.

    How about sending a little of that action my way, hunh? Jenny McCarthy is a douche. There, can I have some money now?

    WHERE’S MY F#$%# MONEY, LEWBOWSKI????

  179. FotC… you’re getting closer to readability. I commend you on these efforts. The problem is that your comment where you make these allegations do, in fact, not contain any specific allegations — or maybe I missed them, because it was hard to follow. I’ll be more than willing to address any that you do have.

  180. Stu,
    I apologize for bothering this forum by airing my off-topic displeasure with Mr Kirby. My son has not been magically cured and he needs medical treatment that I can’t afford.

    I’d simply like Kirby and Olmsted to tell me why they publicly agreed that Seidel has the right to poison public opinion against my son receiving that medical treatment.

  181. Tim Ziegeweid asked
    Hi Al..Do you have an autistic child? Does Tm or RadioInActive have an autistic child?.Or are all of us autism-parents being lectured by people who have never been in our situation? People who can….do!..People who can’t…lecture!

    I have an autistic child (he’s an autistic adult actually). Take a lecture from me.

    There is no autism epidemic.
    There is no evidence that vaccines cause autism.
    There is no evidence that environmental toxins cause autism.
    The Poling case is not proof of an admission by HHS that vaccines cause autism.
    Green Our Vaccines has no basis in science and is a cover for anti-vaxxers.
    There is no conspiracy to hide the truth.

  182. Jenny McCarthy just won the Nobel prize for curing autism. Unfortunately, she was arrested for making terrorist threats by saying she knew how to give it back through diet and shots.

  183. Have you ever been in a plane crash? No? Then how can you dare to discuss the merits of having a pilot on your airliner instead on a lunatic who “has done the research” and thinks he’s a professional? Apparently being sick makes one an expert on curing oneself. Too bad that like reckless drivers, antiprogress antiscience morons will probably kill a few of their neighbors when tragedy inevitably finds them

  184. Help, I can’t stop. I am part of the international conspiracy to hurt children for profit (a pediatrician). Unfortunately, it must be somebody else’s profit, since spending hours a day causing pain and hurting my rapport with my patients and doing paperwork results in my LOSING MONEY for the privelege. Since I started writing on this site about six minutes ago, three more children have died of measles. Now I must go cool off before I start another afternoon of ruining lives on behalf of Big Pharma.

  185. friend of the child · ·

    StuV Please answer to the dishonesty of the IOM,
    since they are always quoted as the prestigious
    non governmental agency that found no link.
    Caught in a trap, Just how doe’s that equate to
    no link

    Seems to me the statement, the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely
    people
    are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of that will be

    they seem to be trying to justify their dishonesty
    by saying that the vaccine program may suffer if they tell the truth. But the other side of this coin
    is knowingly poisoning a child. So you self professed intellectuals think it’s OK to poison
    a child for the greater good. my friends I suggest
    you look up the word conspiracy as this fits it perfectly, definition of conspiracy

    (Law) An agreement, manifesting itself in words or deeds, by which two or more persons confederate to do an unlawful act,

    the last I checked it is unlawful to knowingly poison a child.

    “We’ve got a dragon by the tail here,” states a committee member in the
    transcript. “At the end of the line, what we know is – and I agree –
    that
    the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely
    people
    are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of
    that
    will be. We are kind of caught in a trap. How we work our way out of
    the
    trap, I think, is the charge.”

    Notice how they are justifying lying for the greater good

    Just how do you, poison a child for the greater good anyway

    When byronchild asked CDC spokesperson Curtis Allen for a copy of the
    contract that would detail the agreement between the IOM and the CDC,
    Allen
    stated that the contract would be available only in a heavily
    “redacted” or
    blacked-out format.

  186. Tsu Dho Nimh · ·

    RMP: The University of Google’s research library is your friend. :) Key words are Mexico measles epidemic

    http://www.ciet.org/en/documents/projects/2006212171044.asp
    In the 1989-1990 outbreak of measles in Guerrero, 84,000 people contracted the disease and there were an estimated 6,000 deaths, many caused by secondary illnesses such as diarrhea and bronchopneumonia. [NOTE: Acapulco is in the state of Guerrero ... what happens in Mexico tends to come back with tourists.]

    http://www.virtualcancercentre.com/news.asp?artid=1607

    “Jaime Sepúlveda: Mexico’s passionate proponent of public health . The Lancet , Volume 368 , Issue 9551 , Pages 1957 – 1957 S . Boseley” might be of interest.

    http://www.popline.org/docs/0983/079343.html

    *******
    There was a small outbreak of measles in Guadalajara in 1980, when I was living there. I was visited by a pleasant young nurse with a small cooler full of vaccine. She was visiting every house in my neighborhood to vaccinate toddlers who might have been missed.

  187. Tim Ziegeweid asked

    Stu. Do you have any standing in the autism community?..

    I have some standing in the autism community. I am a pro-vaccine, epidemic denialist. Do you support me on the basis of my standing?

  188. Tsu Dho Nimh · ·

    ARRGH! WordPress ate my post, or the mod-bot shot it. For info on the Mexican Measles … try google with the search string

    Mexico measles epidemic 1989

    There’s a lot of articles, including economic analyses.

  189. friend of the child · ·

    Any pro vacc’s out there care to answer my last post so far stu V has not.

  190. Seems to me the statement, the more negative that presentation [the report] is, the less likely people are to use vaccination, immunization, and we know what the results of that will be.

    Yes. Iron lungs. Brain damage. Death. The good old days you seem to hunger for.

    Your entire string of deluded comments justifies the statement. They don’t want to cause a panic in the uninformed public over what is a small risk.

    Yes, some vaccines harm some children. They prevent far, far, far more harm. But you knew that already.

    Also, what the hell is up with you and the excessive line breaks?

  191. friend of the child · ·

    StuV
    So it’s ok for a governmental agency to conspire
    with the IOM to harm a small subset group of american children / your words “over what is a small risk.” This is the concern of some researchers at this telephone confrence call

    1-in-50 GENETIC RISK?

    On the call, speculation on the prevalence of a genetic mutation that could confer mild mitochondrial dysfunction in the general population ranged from about 1-in-400, to a staggering 1-in-50, or 2% of all Americans.

    On Tuesday, March 11, a conference call was held between vaccine safety officials at the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, several leading experts in vaccine safety research, and executives from America’s Health Insurance Plans, (the HMO trade association) to discuss childhood mitochondrial dysfunction and its potential link to autism and vaccines.

    It was a sobering event for all concerned, and it could soon become known as the Conference Call heard ’round the world.

    The teleconference was scheduled by a little known CDC agency called the Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) Network, a consortium of six research centers working on “immunization-associated health risks,” in conjunction with the CDC’s Immunization Safety Office and the health insurance lobby — whose companies cover some 200 million Americans.

    The hot topic of the day was mitochondria – the little powerhouses within each cell that convert food and oxygen into energy for use by the body. Recent news events have implicated mitochondria in at least one case of regressive autism, following normal development.

    Some researchers on the call reported that mitochondrial dysfunction is probably much more common than the current estimate of 1-in-4,000 people. The potential implications for autism, then, are staggering.

    “We need to find out if there is credible evidence, theoretically, to support the idea that childhood mitochondrial dysfunction might regress into autism,” one of the callers reportedly told participants.

    “THE CLOCK IS TICKING”

    One person on the call (those interviewed for this article asked to remain anonymous) told me that, “the CDC people were informed, in no uncertain terms, that they need to look into this issue immediately, and do something about it.” The clock is ticking, they were told, and if they don’t respond, the information will be made public.

    Still, the doctor said, he was enormously impressed by the “seriousness” with which CDC officials treated the possibility of a link between mitochondria, autism and possibly vaccines as well.

    Since then, however, Dr. Gerberding and other CDC officials were made aware of a Portuguese study, published last October, which reported that 7.2% of children with autism had confirmed mitochondrial disorders. The authors also noted that, “a diversity of associated medical conditions was documented in 20%, with an unexpectedly high rate of mitochondrial respiratory chain disorders.”

    “Apparently, the Portuguese study really got their attention,” one of the participants said. “It’s a highly significant finding. And it’s worrisome enough to definitely look into. I think the CDC people know that.”

    They also know that some reports estimate the rate of mitochondrial dysfunction in autism to be 20% or more. And the rate among children with the regressive sub-type of autism is likely higher still.

    Vaccine safety officials on the March 11 call may have been open to discussing mitochondria and autism, but they were probably highly unprepared for what was to come next.

    One doctor reported his findings from a five-year study of children with autism, who also showed clinical markers for impaired cellular energy, due to mild dysfunction of their mitochondria.

    The biochemistry of 30 children was studied intensively, and in each case, the results showed the same abnormalities as those found in Hannah Poling, participants said. Each child had moderate elevations or imbalances in the exact same amino acids and liver enzymes as Hannah Poling.

    All thirty children also displayed normal, healthy development until about 18-24 months of age, when they quickly regressed into clinically diagnosed autism (and not merely “features of autism”), following some type of unusual trigger, or stress, placed on their immune system.

    Researchers explained on the call that some data show that mitochondrial dysfunction can convert into autism “in numbers that make it not a rare occurrence,” one participant told me. They explained this as “a distinct syndrome; not a mixed bag at all. Every kid had mild mitochondria dysfunction and autistic regression.”

    One theory currently in circulation about what happened to Hannah and other children like her, is an apparent “triple domino effect.” According to this hypothesis, it takes three steps and two triggers to get to some types of autism, and it goes like this:

    STEP ONE: Child is conceived and born healthy, but with an underlying nuclear DNA genetic susceptibility to mitochondrial dysfunction, inherited from dad.

    TRIGGER ONE: An early environmental “adversity” occurs in the womb or during the neonatal period, perhaps caused by prenatal exposure to heavy metals, pollutants, pesticides and medicines. Or, it occurs in early infancy, through environmental toxins, thimerosal exposure, or even the Hepatitis B vaccine “birth dose.” This trigger results in:

    STEP TWO: Child develops mild, usually asymptomatic mitochondrial dysfunction (though I wonder if the ear infections and eczema so common in these cases might also be symptoms of mito problems).

    TRIGGER TWO: Child, now with an underlying mitochondrial dysfunction, suffers over-stimulation of the immune system beyond the capacity of his or her metabolic reserves. This stress is either via a viral febrile infection, or from multiple vaccinations, as in the Poling case. This trigger results in:

    STEP THREE: Acute illness, seizures, encephalopathy, developmental regression, autism.

    Such a scenario might help explain why autism has increased right along with the addition of more vaccines to the national schedule.

    And it might help explain why autism rates are not plummeting now that thimerosal levels have been significantly reduced in most childhood vaccines.

    It’s possible that exposures from the flu shot, and residual mercury left over in other vaccines — perhaps in synergistic effect with aluminum used as an “adjuvant” to boost the immune response – might “contribute to the toxic mix that causes childhood mitochondrial dysfunction in the first place,” one of the doctors said.

  192. “Friend of child’s” comment is quoted from a story by David Kirby on the Huffington Post. It’s therefore of the highest scientific integrity and trustworthiness.

  193. So it’s ok for a governmental agency to conspire with the IOM to harm a small subset group of american children

    If it’s a conspiracy, they’re doing a crappy job of keeping it a secret, aren’t they.

    Anyway, unless you know of a non-invasive, conclusive and cost-effective way to test for mitochondrial disorders, we’re all ears. Until then, we have two options:

    – Vaccinate and risk harming a small percentage of children with mitochondrial immunodeficiency disorders.
    – Not vaccinate and harm millions of children by letting them suffer through debilitating diseases — especially those SAME KIDS WITH IMMUNODEFICIENCY DISORDERS.

    What is so hard to understand about this? Are you a shill for the iron lung industry?

    Such a scenario might help explain why autism has increased right along with the addition of more vaccines to the national schedule.

    The only problem with this entire story: it hasn’t increased. Thank you for playing though.

  194. unless = if, of course.

  195. “It’s possible that exposures from the flu shot, and residual mercury left over in other vaccines — perhaps in synergistic effect with aluminum used as an “adjuvant” to boost the immune response – might “contribute to the toxic mix that causes childhood mitochondrial dysfunction in the first place,” one of the doctors said.”

    Sure, it is possible. It is also possible that it has nothing to do at all with vaccine but rather the arrangement of lawn gnomes at the children’s homes.

    Also if it has to do with an as yet unproven genetic disorder why withhold vaccines from the 98% of the kids who benefit. If the kid is defective it is the job of the parents to detect that defect and prevent exposure. This is done by parents of kids with allergies to peanuts. But we don’t see parents of allergic kids fighting to prevent the sales of peanut butter. Nor do they vilify and scandalize the farmer, food processor or the grocery store. And, as far as I can tell peanut butter hasn’t saved anyones life like vaccines do.

    If you think autism is linked with genetic defects you need to push for research in that area. But your not. Despite all you claim about “greening” vaccines not being anti-vaccine the fact is it is. All your wind and energies are focused on eliminating vaccination and the protection provided for the over 98% of the kids who can benefit.

    Which raises the question. For a person going under the name of “friend of the child” why do love “the” child but hate the other 98% of all children.

  196. Art, “Which raises the question. For a person going under the name of “friend of the child” why do love “the” child but hate the other 98% of all children.”

    I was wondering that to. I think a person can make an argument (though weak) that not vaccinating your own child is probably a small risk as long as there is reasonable herd immunity. However, encouraging everyone else to stop immunizing defeats the purpose.

  197. friend of the child · ·

    Are you saying they cannot make vacc’s toxin free? So play Russian roulette with our children.
    Except the scientist in the loop . Dr. Johnson
    from the simpsonwood liar’s club I do not want that grandson to get a Thimerosal containing vaccine until we know better what is going on
    It will probably take a long time. In the meantime, and I know there are probably implications for this internationally, but in the meantime I think I want that grandson to only be given Thimerosal-free vaccines.”

    He most certainly saved his grandson at the
    expense of our children how many people in the government comply?

    Do as I say don’t do as I do/ say the people in charge of vaccines

  198. you put many more bullets in the gun when you play Russian roulette by not vaccinating. Is that really what you want?

  199. While we have the peanut allergy analogy in mind, let’s talk about “toxin free.” Parents with children who are allergic to peanuts don’t make up ingredients of peanut butter based on chemical names similar to the “chemicals” in peanut butter in order to scare other parents. Right now I’m looking at a peanut butter jar. The ingredients include rapeseed oil. Rapeseed oil is used to make biodiesel fuel. Sounds like…diesel fuel. OMG. PEANUT BUTTER HAS DIESEL FUEL IN IT! Spread the word to all students and alumni of Google University. Some rich quack offer Jimmy Carter a million bucks to drink a peanut butter jar full of diesel fuel.

  200. FotC, we’re done. You are not addressing the issue at all and blather on about conspiracies.

  201. Richard Eis · ·

    I also notice that no-one on the “I want to see more children crippled by common diseases” side seems to be able to answer my oh so simple question on Chelation therapy vs vaccine toxins. Funny that. So many url’s flying about and stupid ‘i’m a parent and know what’s best for society’ crap, FotC with his big pharma conspiracies. etc… and yet not a brain among the lot of you.
    You are irritating, you are dull, you are an unnecessary waste of resources and time, and quite simply, you will lose either way in your oh so glorious war except you are too dumb to see that. I can only hope that when you lose you do not take the rest of us with you.

  202. strider · ·

    Late to the party, but isn’t it obvious? It’s a witch-hunt!

    Several generations were vaccinated long before the so-called autism epidemic. Vaccinations are a population safeguard, no scientific linkage with autism has been found.

    Scientific consensus will eventually settle on the reasons for autism. That’s what research is for. And that means multiple independent studies and independently verifiable tests.

  203. Disclaimer, so I don’t get sued by any peanut butter manufacturers: The above comment is not a fact. There is no diesel fuel in peanut butter.

    Admission: I’ve actually read the transcript of the Simpsonwood conference. Remember, the meeting occurred in June 2000, eight years ago, before any of the relevant peer-reviewed epidemiological studies had been published. In 2000, Dr David Johnson, the State Public Health Officer in Michigan says, “I deal with causality, it seems pretty clear to me that the data are not sufficient one way or the other…Forgive this personal comment…I do not want [my] grandson to get a Thimerosal containing vaccine until we know better what is going on. It will probably take a long time. In the meantime, and I know there are probably implications for this internationally, but in the meanwhile I think I want that grandson to only be given Thimerosal-free vaccines.” It’s clear from the transcript that in 2000 Dr Johnson felt that “the underlying biologic, toxicologic and pharmacologic data [were] too weak to offer guidance one way or the other. ” The way science works is that we know a lot more now. And where’s the conspiracy? The transcript of the Simpsonwood conference is obviously available for public scrutiny.

  204. friend of the child · ·

    It’s the d##n truth something your chicken little
    self knows nothing about truth

    It’s awful funny how the human race survived all those thousands of years with out the vaccine voodoo. Clean a country up get nutrition under
    control and just like the US, child hood disease
    was gone before the intro of vaccine’s. And the
    vaccine’s took the credit. There is no immunity
    better than natural immunity and aborted fetal
    tissue was probably the straw that broke the
    camels back, God said that a child was a gift from
    him we poison it abort it grow vaccine on it
    judgement is soon coming, for god will take his protective hand away and let judgement began.
    Vengeance is mine saith the Lord and I will repay
    and for those who would misinterpret what is being said here, the christian is warned not to
    take revenge. For it is not their fight it’s his

  205. Ah… not just a conspiracy loon, a RELIGIOUS conspiracy loon.

    What a waste of time. I want my time back.

  206. …aborted fetal
    tissue was probably the straw that broke the
    camels back, God said that a child was a gift from
    him we poison it abort it grow vaccine on it
    judgement is soon coming, for god will take his protective hand away and let judgement began.
    Vengeance is mine saith the Lord and I will repay
    and for those who would misinterpret what is being said here, the christian is warned not to
    take revenge. For it is not their fight it’s his

    Ooh, double whammy—anti-vaccine and Christian fundamentalist.

    grow vaccine on it…

    Friend of the child, however much marijuana you’re smoking, you need to cut it by half.

    There is no immunity better than natural immunity…

    Tell that to the 10-20 million indigenous Americans who died from smallpox during the conquest of the Americas. Or the 3o-50 million who died during the 1918 influenza epidemic. Oh, can’t you just feel the natural immunity rolling off their dead bodies?

    a child was a gift from
    him we poison it abort it grow vaccine on it
    judgement is soon coming

    FotC, I’d like to introduce you to my friend, the comma.

    Nitpickery
    You forgot to capitalize “God” once, as well as “Christian”. The “his” at the very end probably should be as well.

  207. That, and his Enter key is twitchy. Unbelievable.

  208. The lies surrounding what is “in” vaccines have been debunked thoroughly, including at my place and at Respectful insolence. The fetus thing is especially idiotic. One of the cell lines used for one of the vaccines was originally derived from cells from a fetus. Cells were taken from an aborted fetus in the mid-60s, and these cells have lived on for decades in culture vats. You might even say that some of that child lives on to help others (although I wouldn’t really say that—a gazillion generations of cells removed from the original mother cells an all).

  209. Tsu Dho Nimh · ·

    Friend of Child –
    Unless you were on the conference call, and neither you nor Kirby were, you have no idea what they discussed.

    As for “Clean a country up” … would you care to explain what happened to make the incidence of measles drop so sharply in the 1960s? Was that the decade that suburbia got indoor plumbing? Or was it the vaccine?

  210. jeebus. Friend of Child’s post is just like the letter that we had in the paper the other day that set me off. ‘Good Christians’ go to the doctor only when they’re sick. Not to get vaccines. YIKES!

  211. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Hi Stu….What standing do you have in the autism community? Are you the parent of an autistic child? Do you have an autistic sibling? Are any of your opinions on autism and chelation based your personal experiences?…If so.It would be great if you would share your personal experiences in dealing with autistic children with the rest of us….The same thing can also be said for Tm & Ra..Please share any knowledge that any of the three of you has gained from your personal experiences in caring for autistic children..Thanks very much..

  212. If the conversation were about how to ‘caring for autistic children’, your point would have some merit. As it is, ‘not so much’.

  213. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Mike S. “There is no autism epidemic”…That’s a good one! Tell that to the folks at the Eau Claire County Dept of Health & Human Services….In 1994 the Eau Claire County Family Support Program had one family with one autistic child on it’s membership roles..Seven years later the program had 1,113 families with autistic children on its waiting list…E.C. Leader-Telegram 2001.. I guess it must be that all of the local doctors just got so much better at diagnosing autism from 1994-2001…How come all of Eau Claire’s doctors were so dumb before 1994 and how did their autism-diagnosing skills get so good all of a sudden?…Perhaps there was a sudden influx of families with autistic children rushing to Eau Claire County from all different parts of the country for some reason known only to them?…Let’s see..1..Doctors suddenly went from being very ignorant to incredibly smart in a matter of 2-3 years?…2 Families rushing to E.C. County just to enroll with the E.C. Family support program? It’s a wonderful little program that helps families with autistic children but I just don’t recall seeing that many moving vans flooding our little town in the mid ninties…What other arguments to you “there-is-no-autism-epidemic” folks like to humor the rest of us with?

  214. Tim,

    I have an autistic cousin.

    There is no such thing as an “autism community”. There is a “delusional anti-vaccine community”. You have made it abundantly clear that you are a part of it.

    The beauty of science is that you do not have to be a part of any “community”. Science works anywhere, anytime. Chelation is bullshit because it has been proven to be so.

    You are so off the deep end, it’s not even funny. Let me think up an analogy.

    Okay, here’s one. Cops cannot investigate any crime that involves people they know, because… wait for it… THEY MIGHT NOT BE OBJECTIVE.

    Do you or do you not agree that that is a good idea? And for the record, you either address that question in your next comment or this party is over.

  215. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Dear Mary…I never automatically assume that people whose opinions differ from mine have no personal experience in dealing with autism..I do, however find opinons based on firsthand experience tend to much more trustworthy than the opinons of people who have no firsthand experience…As for your unwillingness to make recommendations based on your own personal experience…I am glad my neighbor and her mother do not share your way of thinking…If not for those two wonderful ladies my daugher might not be speaking today!

  216. Tim: look into the diagnosis of mental retardation over the same time period.

    No matter which county you choose to cherry-pick, you will see that the raise in autism diagnoses for some magical reason seems to match the decrease in mental retardation, learning disability etc. diagnoses.

    There IS no epidemic, and you know it. But thanks for playing.

  217. Tim, if you’re going to claim that there has been a 1000 fold increase in autism in the last 14 years, you should expect to be ridiculed.

  218. I do, however find opinons based on firsthand experience tend to much more trustworthy than the opinons of people who have no firsthand experience…

    Just to make sure… you are saying that you hold anecdotes over scientific evidence?

    I am glad my neighbor and her mother do not share your way of thinking…If not for those two wonderful ladies my daugher might not be speaking today!

    You are aware that autism is a self-limiting disorder of development DELAY, right?

    Or are you seriously sitting there, talking shit, not knowing the basic facts about your daughter’s disorder?

  219. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Dear Mike..Thanks for answering the question that Stu wouldn’t…I am glad that you understand what it means to “have standing’ in the autism community”…I say the following with all sincerity…I do not agree with any of your stated opinions but I sure-as-hell respect your right to hold them…You are a fellow autism parent and you have obviously been caring for your son for many years now…You are an insider..You have my utmost respect and I tip my hat to you…You are truly a member of the autism community. You are an insider…I cannot help but wonder if Tm, Stu, or Ra are insiders or outsiders….I wonder if any of them understand what it means to “have standing” in the autism community… They will certainly have my respect if it turns out they do “have standing” ..Perhaps they will let us know if they do….Perhaps not…P.S..It’s good to hear from Lie-U-Tenant Best. You will like it here Johnny! We have some pro-mercury folks here who make Lucky look downright sane by comparison.. What is up with David defending Kathleen Seidel? FBHD..P.S….Celtics 97, Lakers 91…Boston leads the series 3 games to 1…

  220. Tim, that angle has been dismissed several times already. It is not necessary to have direct, personal experience of something in order to assess the science that relates to it. Others have even stated their own personal experience with autism and still disagreed with you – are they wrong too? Don’t their personal experiences count?

    And again I will point out that, if your personal experience “proves” a link between vaccines and autism, then my personal experience of vaccinated kids with no such problems (and the similar experience of millions of other parents) proves there is no link, whatsoever. See the problem here?

    If personal experience is to carry weight in the discussion, you’re experience is outweighed several times over by others’ experiences. It may not always seem that way because there is a collective voice for those affected by autism while parents not affected by it are largely unaware there’s even a debate about it. If they all joined in, however, they would significantly outnumber “your side” .

    That doesn’t mean you’re necessarily wrong, it’s just that no one’s personal experience can sway the argument in your favour because you’re outnumbered. You’ll need verifiable data if you hope to make an impact.

  221. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    “…are you sitting there talking shit..? Ahhh! It’s good to here from He-who-has-no-standing” again..How ya doing Stu?..What was your relationship to the autism-community again?..Oh that’s right..you never did bother to answer that question..No mind..outsiders never do. As you were Stu..As you were….

  222. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Andy..In order for your argument to hold water it would have to based on the false assumption that all children (Vaccinated healthy children and vaccinated autistic children) who are exposed to thimerosal handle the exposure in the same manner.This has already been proven not to be the case by Dr Jill James at the University of Arkansas..I certainly do appreciate the tone of your argument though…The link is not between “vaccinations and autism”..The link is between mercury and autism…Most children can excrete the mercury that they are exposed to…but some cannot…These are the children who are coming down with autism..Did you ever stop to wonder why healthy children have much higher levels of mercury in their hair than autistic children? It’s because their bodies are functioning properly! The autistic children cannot properly excrete mercury from their bodies..Learn all you can about Dr Jill James, Her studies on glutathione and it’s role in mercury excretion and then pass on what you have learned to Stu, Mr LaTrec, and Ra….Hey folks! What have we here? ..Stu has an autistic cousin…Well welcome to the community! ….Thanks to your Uncle’s or Aunt’s family misfortune I must respect your right to hold your nutty opinions…

  223. So those without autism members in their family have no standing? Add that to the 1000 fold increase in autism you’ve claimed leads me to give you no standing at all and to cast you to the troll dungeon without your supper.

  224. Ms. Clark · ·

    Stu can borrow my standing in the autism community. I’m on the autism spectrum and I have an adult child on the spectrum (and a few other relatives).

    God save us from that antivaccine whack-jobs.

  225. Ms. Clark · ·

    Tim, maybe while you are in the troll dungeon you can listen to the audio or read the transcripts of the Omnibus hearings that have sent the thimerosal and mmr hypotheses to perdition.

    I think you all need to start preparing for the Special Masters to find that your cases are worthless. Jill James’ research has been shown to be worthless, in the Omnibus courtroom.

    It’s interesting though that she now says she thinks that meB12 shots are like a sledgehammer to the “methylation” pathway. That after she encouraged lots of people to sledgehammer their kids with meB12 injections. That’s Jill, you’re a real help there.

  226. I don’t like to call them anti-vax. I prefer to call them pro-polio or just simply pro-death.

  227. Tim Z,
    Hi, Great Celtics game last night!!
    Yes, this place even has Autism Diva to confirm that it’s a safe haven for wackadoodles. The rest are in favor of poisoning children for profit.

  228. For the last time, Tim Z, I am friggin’ autistic. Beat that you willfully ignorant bastard.

  229. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Dear RMP..I never made the claim that the number of families with autistic kids on the E.C. Family support list jumped from 1 to 1,113 from 1994-2001.. The numbers were taken directly from an article done by the Eau Claire Leader-Telegram in 2001. As for you RA..I am sure you are autistic…Do us a favor and have your mercury-levels tested..I am willing to bet they are high….Sorry Ms Clark..standing can’t be lent or borrowed..you either have it or you don’t….Andy..You make some very good points regarding personal experience..The reason why I asked Stu, Tm, Ra, and the other pro-mercury-shills on this list what ,if any, personal experience they might have in dealing with autism and mercury-chelation is because this list has pro-thimerosal-shills like Tm quoting questionable sources like “Wiki_Citation-needed-here-Pedia” and posting nonsense such as “chelation to treat autism involves injecting children intravenouly with dangerous chemicals”..Tm really exposed his complete ignorance here..If he had ever personally witnessed an autistic child undergoing chelation therapy, (which he has not)..he would know what many on this list already know..The proper procedure for detoxifying mercury from autistic chidren is oral chelation…oral chelation never involves the use of needles or dangerous chemicals….If Tm had any personal experience with chelating autistic children he would not find it necessary to scavange through “Wiki_Citation_needed_here_Pedia”.to somehow make up for his complete lack of familiarity with the subject at hand. Nut-jobs like Tm, Mr Pid, and Ra use unreliable sources like “Wiki_Citataion_needed_here_Pedia’ the same way a drunkard uses a streetlight..They use it for support, not for illumination….P.S..Dear Mr Stanton..I, like you, am pro-vaccine..I just don’t have the love of thimerosal that folks like Stu, Tm, and Ra do..Hey Johnny..Isn’t it amazing how sane Lucky is in comparison to Stu, Tm, RadioInactive, and all the other neurodiversity kooks on this list?…These must be the folks that worship such wonderful broom-riding ladies like Kathleen Seidel and Lisa Randall.

  230. Tmtoulouse cites RationalWiki because he effectively founded it. There is no way he’d pass up this opportunity to relevantly link to it.

    “Neurodiversity kooks”? Got something against people that are different, Tim Z?

  231. “Nut-jobs like Tm, Mr Pid, and Ra use unreliable sources like “Wiki_Citataion_needed_here_Pedia’ the same way a drunkard uses a streetlight.”

    I’d agree that linking to a self-edited, rationalist ‘pedia is probably not a particularly useful move but Clifford G Miller linked to his own website to defend his position, so does that debunk your side of the debate Tim?

    On your earlier comment that my anecdotes are flawed because they fail to recognise different responses, I’d have to disagree. They are anecdotes based on direct personal experience and therefore they must be accepted as data – apparently.

    But my real argument with what you’ve said is your insistence that anyone without direct personal experience of autism cannot have a useful opinion. That’s just a dumb position to take.

    How would you ever expect cures or preventions for autism to be researched and discovered if no one without direct, personal experience is allowed to hold an opinion on the subject? That would probably exclude vast numbers of people otherwise fully qualified to do the research – because research without resulting opinion and recommendation is pointless research.

  232. I should add that automatically declaring an advocate of vaccines to be a pharma-shill is equally dumb. Unless you have evidence they are on the payroll, it just looks ridiculous and opens the door for others to label you a chelation shill.

    I’m sure you can see how unproductive discussion would be from there on.

  233. Tim Z,
    This is how brain damaged people argue. They make Rick look like a genuis.

  234. Asplomat · ·

    “This is how brain damaged people argue. They make Rick look like a genuis.”

    Yes, because t3h intelligunt peoples construct brilliant arguments focused around ad hominems and ridiculously poor studies based upon failed hypotheses rather than creating logical arguments based upon scientifically verifiable facts.

  235. Asplomat,
    Wrong, we simply tell the truth. Our kids are getting better by removing the mercury.

  236. A “truth” that conveniently ignores any parts of the science you don’t like.

  237. I’m starting to see an awful lot of similarity between Intelligent Designers and anti-vacciners. Both claim “Big Science/Pharma” is repressing the purveyors of Truth. They repeatedly call for proof that “Darwinism/Vaccinism” is right, then whenever people handily provide such proof, they ignore it and continue demanding proof.

  238. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Hi Andy…I cannot honestly say that I agree with your views on the mercury-autism issue but I do appreciate your civility…Mercury is a known nuerotoxin..there is no known safe level of exposure to HG…….The issue should never be cast as a link between autism and vaccines..That simply plays into the hands of pro-mercury folks like Kathleen Seidel and Lisa Randall.. The link is between mercury and autism….P.S..Somebody else provided provided a great deal of humor by observing that I “cherry-picked” Eau Claire County when I simply posted autism statistics verbatim from a 2001 Eau Claire Leader-Telegram story on the Eau Claire Family Support Program..Thanks for the humor…How conveineient for me! I just happened to “cherry-pick” the county I reside in! I must admit that those who worship the Goddess Seidel certainly have a wonderful sense of humor! Out of all of the thousands of counties to “cherry-pick” stats from my own county just happened to have the stats I was searching for! Now that is what I call first-rate cherry picking…Andy…Oral Mercury Chelation (No needles, no dangerous chemicals Stu) allowed my neighbors boy to start speaking for the first time in his life around his seventh birthday and it also achieved the same results for my daughter around her seventh birthday..If anybody wishes to accuse me of being a “shill for oral chelation” I will happily plead guilty..I hope that oral chelation will prove just as effective for my friend John as he trys to detoxify his son’s body of HG..,…I think it is possible, in theory, for people without direct personal experience to have useful opinions on the mercury-autism issue…The point I was trying to make was that if Tm had personal experience in chelating autistic children, witnessing it, or participating in the process as my wife and I do on a daily basis, he would have known that the information he dredged up on Wiki_Citation_needed_here_Pedia” “Chelating autistic children involves injecting them with needles full of dangerous chemicals” was simply not true..The fact is that poor autistic boy who died in Pittsburg (whose story Tm, Stu, and Ra lean on for support but not illumination) died because the physician inadvertantly used a chemical that should have never been administerd to the child and used a chelation procedure (Intravenous chelation) that should never be used when chelating a child..that ppor boy died as a result of medical malpractice..If the physician had used the proper procedure for chelating a young child the boy would probably be alive and talking today….This is were having personal experience trumps having Tm’s Wiki_Citation_Needed_here_Pedia_Cliff’s_Notes understanding of an issue…If Tm had had any personal experience in chealting autistic children it would have helped him to recognize that what Wiki_Citation_Needed_Here_Pedia” was peddling to him as the last word on chelation was in fact a pile of rubbish. .As it was..Tm had no experince of his own to draw upon when rummaging through Whacky-Pedia and as a result he mistakenly thought that what he was reading was the god’s-honest truth about chelating autistic kids and he then went on to post Whacky-Pedia’s false and misleading information without any further thought on the matter. …..On Clifford..He seems like a nice guy..If he is making the same mistake as Tm by leaning on whacky-pedia for support and not for illumination then he may want to consider finding additional sources to back up whatever claims from Whacky-Pedia he is using to support his arguments..

  239. Thanks for thoughtlessly lumping me in with everyone else, Tim Z. At no point did I ever cite the story of the kid who died from chelation therapy. As for Tmtoulouse’s citing RationalWiki’s article on chelation, he wrote a good chunk of that article himself, so he didn’t “mistakenly read it”. The rest was written by PalMD, who, unlike you, is an actual Doctor, who treats actual people. As opposed to you, who only watches people get treated.

  240. Radioactive,
    Actual MD’s are taught in Med School that chelation is the proper treatment for mercury poisoning. Actual MD’s screwed up by not knowing how much mercury they shotup our infants with so they try to claim it doesn’t work for autism. Curing autism would prove that actual MD’s screwed up. So, actual MD’s won’t help our kids because it would damage their reputations.

  241. At the risk of feeding the trolls, can someone explain to me the disparity of answers regarding what chelation is? According the Tim (as I understand him), there are no shots or anything that can be described as invasive. Is this an accurate assessment?

  242. America's Dairyland · ·

    “In 1994 the Eau Claire County Family Support Program had one family with one autistic child on it’s membership roles..”

    That is also the year that the DSM-IV first included an expanded definition of autism. So of course the numbers went up… it included kids who would have been not diagnosed or diagnosed with something else!

    See http://www.unstrange.com/dsm1.html

  243. America’s Dairyland, using Tims logic, the difference between the number of people that got burgers at McDonalds between the day it first opened and five years later clearly indicates the 1000 fold increase in burger consumption.

  244. America's Dairyland · ·

    There are oral chelators. A quicky pubmed search brings this up in a case of real mercury poisoning:
    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=10856034

  245. America's Dairyland · ·

    Yes, that is his “logic”.

    Also, there are oral chelators. A quick PubMed search shows one being used in a case of real mercury poisoning:
    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=10856034

  246. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Ahh..the good old “expanded definitions” argument…Yup…That must be it..They sure went hog wild when they expanded those goldarn definitions…..Hi Andy…I just received an email that may be of interest to you regarding chelation that I would like to send to you off list…I would like to get your thoughts on it. Would it be possible to contact you privately? Tim

  247. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Dear Rmp….My daughter’s chelation therapy consists entirely of oral chelatiors…No needles or dangerous chemicals are used at any point in time. Thanks for asking a good question. I was hoping that Tm would get around to asking that question…That wasn’t so hard now was it?…Your assesment is completely accurate..I would never allow anybody to to “treat” my daughter with invasive needles or dangerous chemicals..I Hat’s off to you!

  248. Tim, John:

    By your definitions, vaccines/mercury in vaccines cure mental retardation. At the same time autism diagnoses sharply rose (which is vaccines/mercury in vaccines’ fault, right?), diagnoses of mental retardation dropped. Sharply. At about the same rate.

    So are you saying that we stop vaccinating, removing this wonderful cure for mental retardation?

    All ears. Go for it.

  249. Tim, for the sake of argument, I’ll conditionally stipulate that oral chelation therapy is reasonably safe and effective in reducing mercury levels in humans. At least, that is what I get from reading the PubMed abstract (using the link provided above by America’s Dairyland).

    However, they research reached that conclusion by monitoring the urinary mercury levels before, during and after treatment. Do you have any data that shows that the chelation therapy is in fact removing mercury from your child?

  250. Stu,
    I think the drop in MR corresponds to the Ravens IQ test for people with Asperger’s which makes them think they are a lot more intelligent than they really are. Abortions of Downs Syndrome babies could also contribute to the decline.

  251. I’m going out on a limb here John but I’m going to be surprised if you’ve got data to back up your assertions.

  252. BTW John, I should have asked you the same question I asked Tim. Do you have any data that supports your assertion that the chelation treatments are reducing the mercury level in your child?

  253. Nope, it’s vaccines curing them. QED. As valid a hypothesis as yours. Well, actually, more valid as it has not been extensively debunked. Not that it needs to be, mind you.

    …or maybe, just maybe, it is diagnostic substitution. But that would suck, because you’d have nobody to blame, eh, John?

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/117/4/1028

  254. StuV, I do find it rather ironic that the study you cite was done in Tim’s home state of WI. A poetic coincidence.

  255. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Hi rmp…My daughter’s chelation therapy is administerd through the “LifeSpring Partner’s for Health Clinic in La Crosse, WI..Her urinary mercury levels are tested at the clinic..The urinary tests are known as DMSA challenge tests..thanks very much for asking a very good question.

  256. Tim, is LifeSpring affiliated with Gunderson or Franciscan Skemp? Just curious as we treat my wife’s diabetes at Gunderson (small world).

    Do you have/can you make the results of your daughters urinary tests public knowledge?

  257. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Stu..”Vaccines/mercury in vaccines cure mental retardation”???? Hey there Stu..I know you are making a very brave attempt to ask me a question here..Unfortunately I have absolutely no idea what it is you are trying to ask me. I have never posted any opinions on mental retardation on this list so I am not sure what it is you are trying to ask me… I do think that the N-D’s in Seidel’s army are more than a little whacky but I do not consider them to be mentally retarded..Does that answer your question??? I am all ears…

  258. Tim, Stu’s point is simply that there was a corresponding decrease in mental retardation at the same time there was an increase in diagnosis of autism. In all likelihood, this is the diagnostic substitution that is discussed in article he references.

    Just for a bit of snark, he ask’s if vaccines cure mental retardation because it’s at least as valid a comment as suggesting that they cause autism.

  259. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Hi Rmp….It is a small world…LifeSpring Partner’s for Health is an independent clinic run by Dr Patrick Scott M.D. I would like to help you as much as possible.. If you contact me privately by phone I would be more than willing to make my daughter’s urinary tests available to you on a strictly private basis..I have no problem sharing my daughter’s specific information person to person but I do not feel comfortable posting the specific details on the net. You have told me more than enough to let me know that you are on the level..(it is a small world)..I am in the Eau Claire phone book..T.Ziegewied….I’ll make you a deal RMP..Look me up and leave message on my answering machine (Let me know who you are) and I will be more than willing to share the information you seek with you with one precondition..I want you to use the information you request only to help your autistic child/dependent..I do not want the specific detail posted on the internet…..If we have a deal please call me and leave me your contact information so I can get in touch with you..I look forward to helping you to the best of my ability..Let me know if we have a deal..I hope that we do. Tim

  260. I’ve read quite a few of the comments, but I didn’t wade through every last one so I don’t know if any other clinicians have commented regarding the question of an epidemic. Here is my experience:

    In 1989 I saw a patient who exhibited the symptoms of what I would now call classic Aperger’s syndrome. I referred him to a colleague for testing and we, our team, at a major university clinic were baffled in the effort to come up with a diagnostic label, although we had identified the complex of symptoms clearly. I said, at the time, that this patient seemed to have some form of autism, yet he was too high functioning to be considered autistic (if it was occurring on the fringes, there was certainly no mainstream talk of spectrum in the professional world back then).

    10 years later, I encountered a patient with a nearly identical constellation of symptoms. I began to investigate again and quickly found some information on Asperger’s Syndrome. Nonetheless, other psychologists and psychiatrists I spoke with were extremely skeptical of the notion of high functioning autism, including the treating psychiatrist who was an academic at another major research institution in the city. The patient had previously been seen by several other psychologists and psychiatrists over the years and had not been diagnosed with autism in any form – atypical depression and r/o OCD were the most frequent attempts at diagnosis he received.

    A few years have passed and the picture in the field has changed radically. There is far greater awareness of something that looks like higher functioning autism (although still some debate about whether it really is the same disorder on a spectrum or a different disorder with symptoms in common with autism). In any case, there is far more readiness to call this phenomenon Asperger’s or autism and, frankly, a good deal of sloppiness in diagnosis which has resulted in moving from what I believe was serious under-diagnosis of autism in higher functioning individuals to drastic overdiagnosis in higher functioning individuals much as we’ve seen happen with ADHD and Bipolor Disorder in recent years.
    There aren’t more people walking in my door with symptoms of autism than there were 20 years ago. Call it greater awareness or call it a de facto expanded diagnostic category, the diagnosis has become more commonplace – not the symptoms.

    I’ve had several patients in the past couple of years approach me believing they might have Asperger’s Syndrome when, clearly, they did not. When that situation begins to occur, you’ll find clinicians who build their “specialty” practices rubber stamping self-diagnosed patients. It ain’t pretty, but it’s real. Why all these self-diagnoses? I think there is an enormous rise in autism awareness associated with the internet and with articles in mainstream publications. In the first 15+ years of my practice, no one ever approached me believing they had Asperger’s including the 1989 patient who had it, IMO. In the last five years, several people have, even though they didn’t have it.

    I’m not here to engage in an argument with people who don’t do clinical work, who haven’t been clinicians during the past three decades to see the history on this. I’m just presenting what happened with diagnosis over the past 25 years. I’m a PhD in clinical psychology, I’m trained in personality and neuropsych assessment and have done hundreds of full batteries in the past 25 years. My profession has nothing to do with immunizations and I couldn’t care less about protecting the reputations of MD’s. Anyone who knows me knows I’m more than willing to criticize MDs as I frequently do when it comes prescribing trends.

  261. One clarification, I’m only talking about my experience with teens and adults and higher functioning individuals. I trained to do child assessment, but haven’t done any since the mid 80s, and none of my clinical work was with pediatric neuro.

  262. rmp: Exactly right.

  263. Tim, if your daughters data shows a relationship between her chelation treatment and a reduction of her mercury level, it would be a very impressive piece of data. If you can’t provide that (and it is certainly your right to withhold it), I can not give your explanation any credence. While I realize that you’ve offered to share that with me privately, that is not how science is done. In effect, it would hamstring me from talking at all as I would respect your wishes to keep it confidential even if I thought it helped/hurt various arguments I would make.

    So thanks for the offer but it truly is an ‘OFFER I HAVE TO REFUSE’. OK, that was a cheesy line but it was the best I could think of ;)

  264. RMP,
    I can only relate what I have read in general terms. People with Asperger’s were usually assessed with low IQ’s before the Raven’s IQ test was invented to make them feel better about themselves and boost their self-esteem.

    STU,
    Kids like mine could never have been missed because his bizarre behavior would never have been mistaken for simple retardation. It is so much worse that nobody could mistake it.

  265. RMP,
    I should add that it might b possible to confuse Asperger’s and MR but never autism.

  266. John, do you have any data regarding mercury reduction in your child that is tied to your chelation treatments?

  267. John Best:

    People with Asperger’s were usually assessed with low IQ’s before the Raven’s IQ test was invented to make them feel better about themselves and boost their self-esteem.

    Well, that was certainly loaded wording. Your wording is such that it implies that children with Asperger’s really are retarded, and the “Raven’s IQ test” (which I have only heard of in passing before) is somehow not legitimate (which itself assumes that the notion of “IQ” is legitimate).

  268. hmmmm, maybe I’m reading too much into this but as soon as I ask for data showing the reduction of mercury as a result of the chelation treatments, what I hear is a deafening silence.

    Tim, John, I’m giving you the opportunity to rub my face in it. Where is the evidence that your children have reduced mercury levels because of the chelation treatments? I would think you’d be chomping on the bit to show it.

  269. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Hi RMP…Let’s try again to work something a deal that we can both agree to…I want to help your child while maintaining my daughter’s privacy..I hope you understand…I’ll tell you what..If you agree..I will try to obtain the information you seek and if I can get it for you you are perfectly free to publicly discuss the information with anybody you wish and post it on the internet if you like….The only thing I would ask is that you would refrain from mentioning or posting my daughter’s name, address, and other personal information that doesn’t pertain to the mercury-chelation on the internet…I don’t want her personal information to be bandied about in public… Do we have a workable deal?..I really would like to work something out that we could both feel good about..I would love to work something out with you especially because you live near the LifeSpring Clinic and Dr Scott really does some incredible work that has benefitted many autistic children. I would like the general public to know more about the good work being done…Let’s keep at this until we reach a mutually agreeable deal…I’ll be looking forward to your reply….P.S..Do you have an autistic child who might benefit from see Dr Scott? Best wishes to you and your family. Let me know what you think! Tim

  270. RMP,
    I measure the level of mercury by behavioral and cognitine improvements since there is no way to measure exactly how much is left in the brain. When he can read a green and a racing form, I’ll be done.

  271. By that standard, you have no way of knowing if it is the chelation helping him or if he would have turned out that way anyway.

  272. Radioactive,
    I put the golf club in my son’s hands and swung it for him every day for the first 8 years after he could stand up before he ever tried to swing it himself. My other kids swung it themselves at age one or less. Sam either dropped the club when I gave it to him to swing by himself or tried to eat it.

    Perhaps you would have had to observe for yourself how pathetic my son was before chelation to appreciate the difference. Maybe observing adults who are just like the way my son used to be would help you understand that this brand of severe autism never gets better over time. But, then again, the position here is not to understand the horror of autism and how to fix it. Rather, it is to defend drug company negligence.

  273. John, correlation is not causation no matter how hard you wish it to be so.

    So, let me see if I can sum up the positions:

    John: my child became ill because of mercury in vaccines, although I do not have a shred of proof for that. My child then became better because of chelation, although I do not have a shred of proof that it was the chelation that did it. Also, people with Asperger are retards and need to feel better about themselves with a fake IQ test. Furthermore, I cannot see my child’s behavior being diagnosed as mental retardation, and from this data point I reject the data of diagnostic substitution.

    Tim: I maybe have magical proof, but I’ll only show it to you in private. Also, I have an autistic child and therefore know better. Neener neener. Furthermore, I have a headache-inducing crush on ellipses, even though I can never remember whether there’s 2 or 3 periods in them.

    How am I doing?

  274. Tim, I’m not sure how you got the idea that I have a child with autism. My trips to LaCrosse are for my wife’s diabetes.

    As far as getting the test data that shows the mercury level, I understand your desire to protect your childs privacy. Perhaps you can get the Dr. to provide some data in such a way as to protect patients privacy but still provide some substantiation that
    1) he treats autism patients with autism
    2) he tests for mercury in their system
    3) he treats them with chelation
    4) he verifies there is a reduction of mercury in their system
    and finally
    5) he shows that the autism patients he’s treated with chelation improve

  275. I can only relate what I have read in general terms. People with Asperger’s were usually assessed with low IQ’s before the Raven’s IQ test was invented to make them feel better about themselves and boost their self-esteem.

    The test was developed in the late thirties as an alternate measure of g. It had absolutely nothing to do with trying to make people with Asperger’s “feel” anything. Because it isn’t heavily loaded for verbal ability, it’s a quick, easy, handy way to assess general intelligence in individual’s who suffer selective verbal impairments.

    I used the Raven’s alongside the WAIS-R for a couple of years back in the mid-80s at an inpatient state psychiatric hospital. It stacked up surprisingly well against WAIS-R for FSIQ. Actually, I was amazed at how well individual Full-Scale IQ scores corresponded to results on the Raven’s. As far as using the Raven’s to assess patients with Asperger’s, I don’t see any need. The WISC and WAIS provide an adequate sample to assess intellectual functioning across a range of functioning. Clinicians know that impairments in specific areas showing up as disparities in subtest scores and that selective impairments diminish FSIQ (overall IQ) score. Identifying disparities in subtest scores is an essential part of diagnosing the nature of the impairments.

  276. Stu,
    Stating that correlation does not equal causation does not make your assertion valid. When you treat autism as mercury poisoning and the kid gets better, it proves you have identified the cause correctly.

    It’s just like treating a sophist by punching him in the mouth. Once he’s been taught that people won’t accept his carefully worded deceptions, he learns to shut up. Hence, you have established that lying is the cause of getting your head bashed in when it affects innocent children.

  277. When you treat autism as mercury poisoning and the kid gets better, it proves you have identified the cause correctly.

    No, it means you don’t even know what autism is. If you were to treat it as a yeast infection and the kid gets better… et cetera. That chelation therapy occurred at the same time your child improved means as much as the cartoons that were on TV at the time.

    And, ehm, John? Could you tone the threats of physical violence down a little bit? The last resort…

  278. Stu,
    Like I said, you can make inane arguments to defend negligent vaccine manufacturers or you can help injured kids. This inane argument is like saying the pill you took to get rid of a headache is not responsible for the headache going away. You should bone up on arguments to absurdity.

  279. Interesting analogy considering that even without taking a pill, the headache will go away.

  280. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Hi Rmp..I think your five points are very reasonable…I will be more than happy to contact the clinic and ask to have that information sent to me personally…I never had any idea wether you had an autistic child or not…The reason I asked was because if you did have an autistic child it would provide an opportunity for you to schedule a visit to the clinic so you could meet Dr Scott personally and discuss the autism chelation issue with him….there is no substitute for personal experience…May I ask what it is that interests you about the mercury-autism issue? I would think that mercury-chelation might be a little bit dry for folks who are not directly affected by the issue..I will be happy to write to Dr Scott’s office and request information on your five points and if and when I get a reply from Dr Scott I will let you know..Is there anywhere else I can contact you besides this list? P.S..I have written down your five points/questions…You know..I think your questions are all valid..I am willing to bet that if you were to call the Clinic at 1-608-785-0038 and ask for Diane that she would be willing to send some introductory information on this issue to you…I will contact Diane on Tuesday and see if she would be willing to send information that addresses your questions to me….The office is closed on Mondays…I will contact you on this list on Tuesday evening and let you know what Diane has to say..How does that sound to you…Tim

  281. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Anything that gives Mr Pid a headache can’t be all bad..I certainly hope that Lie U. Tenant Best doesn’t tone anything down…I hope that he rachets everything up!…It’s all good!

  282. rmp: Game. Set. Match.

  283. Thanks Tim, if you can get that data and provide it here, that would be great. I appreciate your not poking fun at #1 ‘he treats autism patients with autism’. I really should do a better job of proof reading.

    StuV, thanks.

  284. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Dear RMP…I will do my best to get information from the clinic…..However the best way for the information to be dispersed on this list and to be taken seriously by the N-D crowd would be for me to send the clinic’s information to you by snail-mail…Whatever I post will be automatically dismissed by Seidel’s minions but it may be taken seriously coming from you …I will try my best to obtain the requested information but once I get it you will have to be the one to post it…So…When I have obtained the requested information I will mention it on this list and then I will wait for you to send me your snail-mail address and I will get it to you ASAP sans all unecessary personal information. Then you will be free to do whatever you like with Dr Scott’s info.

  285. Fair enough Tim.

  286. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Hi RMP…I am glad we have a deal…I will be contacting Dr Scott’s office tomorrow afternoon..P.S..If you get a chance you should stop by the clinic and ask for some chelation literature..You really should see the place for yourself..I think you would find it very interesting. …More tomorrow

  287. Thanks Tim. You can use this for an email address

    callmermp@gmail.com

  288. fireweasel · ·

    @Clifford Miller, and Ane: I highly doubt there will *ever* be a controlled, randomized, double-blind trial of placebo vs. vaccine, of the type you are calling for. Why? Because it is unethical.

    Few RCTs for new drugs or medical therapy these days run a placebo arm. For instance, any RCT of a new blood pressure medication will have as its control arm an already established blood pressure medication. To deliberately enrol participants with a condition for which there is an accepted and effective treatment, and fail to provide them with *any* treatment, is unethical.

    In the case of vaccines, those enrolled in such a study do not have an illness; they can be said to have the ‘condition’ of non-immunity to disease. We have the option of treating them with a known vaccine which reduces the risk of disease (and I won’t relist all the safety profiles etc as others here have already provided links) *or* treating them with a placebo which provides *no* protection against the infectious diseases which formerly killed or disabled thousands of children in childhood.

    Even if you sincerely believe that vaccines cause harm, you would have to believe that the diseases cause equal or *less* harm (and history shows this is patently false) to ethically enrol children in such a trial. This is why the single vaccine studies looked at the combined MMR vs. giving them as single jabs. We *know* the harm that measles can do.

    By all means, argue for the development of safer vaccines, if you really think those on the market are a problem. But run the trials against the medically accepted ‘gold standard’, not placebo. Otherwise not only will you expose your participants to unjustifiable, unethical risk, but neither will you prove your point of comparative ‘safety.’

  289. Hm. I didn’t know that. Thanks fireweasel—I learned something new today!

  290. fireweasel said ” This is why the single vaccine studies looked at the combined MMR vs. giving them as single jabs. We *know* the harm that measles can do. ”

    Like this? …. “Teenager dies of measles”…
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2166778/Teenager-dies-of-measles-as-cases-continue-to-rise,-Government-officials-say.html

  291. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Dear RMP..Your questions have been sent to Diane at the LifeSpring Clinic…It will be very interesting to see her replies. Tim

  292. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Anybody on this list who truly wants to understand the link between mercury and autism should read “Changing the Course of Autism: A Practical guide for Physicians and Parents by Bryan Jepson M.D. Unlike TmScrew2Loose, RadioInactive, and Mr Pid, Dr Jepson acutally understands what he is writing about.

  293. Let us hope that, unlike Tim Z, Jepson doesn’t become obvious about copypasting his lame mangled nicknames for other people into every post, or think that it does anything besides show how immature and desperate to score cheap points he is.

  294. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Read the book RA..Find out for yourself! Then you can educate TmScrew2loose…

  295. Tim Z demonstrates his immaturity by using those lame mangled nicknames again.

    Can’t you try to be creative?

  296. But thanks for calling me “RA” anyways.

  297. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Hey Sungod! Read Dr Jepson’s book “Changing the Course of Autism..” and then teach what you have learned to Mr La Trec and Mr Pid.

  298. America's Dairyland · ·

    ” Jepson is director of an alternative autism practice south of Salt Lake, called the Children’s Biomedical Center of Utah Inc. Whether either intend to move to Austin, or instead plan to combine their present jobs with sessions at Thoughtful House, wasn’t clear when this commentary was written”

    “Wakefield’s enterprise doesn’t publicise a price list, but, for ball-park comparison, Dr Bryan Jepson’s Utah practice advertises $350 for an initial consultation, and $175 for a one-hour follow-up.”

    From:
    http://briandeer.com/wakefield/thoughtful-clinical.htm

  299. John Best, from your blog:

    This disgustingly obese excuse for a human being…

    and

    I do not take any grief from from fat lazy lesbians…

    and

    These child abusers… [describing neurodiversity promoters]

    What a bitter, hateful man you are. How small, of heart, mind and spirit you must be to think nothing of saying such things.

  300. RA,
    I’m too old for political correctitude. Would it be more polite to say “sweathog” instead of disgustingly obese?

  301. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Dear RMP..I called Diane at the LifeSpring Clinic today to reorder some of Sheryl’s chelation meds today and I asked if she received your questions..She said that she did and that she would try to get replies sent to me tomorrow…Diane asked that we be patient because she is Dr Scott’s only assistant at the clinic right now so she is currently doing the work of 3-4 people. I will get the replies to you as soon as I get them from Diane…All of the answers to your questions can be found in Dr Jepson’s book “Changing the Course of Autism”… Tim

  302. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Hey John..I see that SunGod (RA) is getting a bit nutty..I guess he is easily offended when you say such unkind things about fat lazy lesbians!.. Charlize Theron is on Letterman right now and she is definitely the polar opposite of a fat lazy lesbian…I am sure Charlize is every fat lazy lesbian’s fantasy though! FBHD.

  303. That’s right, Tim. It’s nutty to react to others’ expressions of inhuman contempt.

    It is not the words themselves that makes them inhuman, but the hate behind them. They express John Best’s attempt at demeaning his foes as much as possible. To not attack another’s argument, but another human being. The ultimate goal of his words is to dehumanize his opponents as much as possible, either to make it easier to argue with them or because he enjoys it. Such hateful wording is the basest, most craven and contemptible use of language there is.

    You reap what you sow; those who disrespect the humanity of others deserve no respect themselves.

  304. Tim,
    I see that Sun God thinks fat lazy lesbians deserve respect. Maybe he should ask the 500 pound hog for a date.
    Mocking the lack of self respect that causeed this beast to gain all that weight is just part of the fun while pointing out that she is engaged in a con job that is harmful autistic children. People who harm autistic children with propaganda don’t deserve any respect.

  305. Tim, just to let you know, I’m still monitoring this site and the emails you send me. For what it’s worth, I believe that you and most who take your position are truly interested in what’s best for your children. Being a data driven kind of individual I think you’re wrong in blaming vaccinations but I’m open to you showing me ‘quality data’ that proves your point.

    John Best, are you not at all interested in trying to win people over to your position? As I see it, you’re not even preaching to your choir, but rather making your choir embarrassed to go to your church.

  306. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Dear RMP..Thanks for your post. There are sometings that needed to be cleared up. I do not blame “vaccinations” for autism..I blame mercury for autism and thimerosal is 49.6% mercury. Parents of autistic children are not stupid. If a treatment does not show beneficial results within a reasonable amount of time most parents will discontinue that treatment. Prior to chelation we tried several therapies to try and help our daughter learn to speak and none of them showed any results and so we discontinued them after 1-2 months…Oral chelation has only one thing going for it..It works…It is expensive, It is labor intensive, It is time consuming,… If oral chelation did not work parents would drop it in a New York minute..Oral chelation has only one thing to recommend itself to parents of autistic kids…It works! If it didn’t work nobody would pursue it…See secretin-hormone therapy..you never hear about that anymore and the reason why is because it only worked for a very small percentage of autistic children and did nothing for the majority of them. If chelation did not work you and I would not be discussing it on the internet today. I am still waiting for a reply from the LifeSpring Clinic to your questions..If we don’t get a reply the answers you seek can still be found in Dr Jepson’s book “Changing the Course of Autism..A Practical Guide for Physicians and Parents” The treatments discussed in the book are identical to the oral-chelation treatments given by Dr Scott. The “Quality Data” that matters most is this..Oral-chelation passes “the mother test”…It works! If it didn’t work parents would not do it. And the chelation targets the mercury and the mercury was in the thimerosal and the thimerosal was in the vaccines.

  307. Tim, I’m really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here but “the mother test” would have a lot more value if you had data other than anecdotes.

    If the data showed mercury pre treatment and reduced mercury post treatment, I’d be very interested. But, … I’m very skeptical that anyone will provide that data. If I were to make a guess, it would be that the anti-thimermisol folks will end up saying that the mercury levels are so low that they can’t be measured but that they know that children improve after chelation treatments so, it must be mercury poisoning.

  308. Tim, one more thing. Without question, I believe you and you wife love your daughter above all else and are giving her constant love, attention and therapy (other than chelation). Why should I not believe it’s your love/attention to your daughter that’s making a difference?

  309. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    My best advice would be to go to Borders Books and buy a copy of Dr Jepson’s book. Everything that Dr Scott does for autistic children is described in great detail. I’ll keep waiting for Diane’s reply..P.S. You never did answer my question. Why are you interested in this issue?

  310. “Why am I interested in this issue?”.

    hmmm… I think the answer is that because of my wife’s health issues, I’m required to be a home body. Since I don’t have the freedom to do what normal guys do, I find an outlet in being active on issues that resonate with me. While I can’t go to the golf course or go to poker night, I can speak out on issues. I’m drawn to issues that are science/data driven as I am an owner of an engineering company.

    “In God we trust, everyone else bring data!”

  311. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Hi again RMP….Thanks for your question…..Our love and for, and attention to our daughter’s developmentall progress have been consistent from day one..She went from non-verbal to verbal in a period of 4-6 weeks shortly after her seventh birthday…Our love for our daughter has always been consistent…what changed durig those 4-6 weeks was that she started mercury-chelation therapy….Some times I wonder if the sceptics think that thousands of families of autistic children all across the country got together and decided to blame a mercury-based vaccine preservative just for shits-and-giggles…It didn’t work like that…thousands of parents, all working independently of each other to try to heal their children came to the same conclusion by the same process of trial and error…OK..I’ll come clean…This whole mercury-autism epidemic is just a funny croc that me and Johnny Best dreamed up one day. We thought the whole thing up just by ourselves..What can I say..It was a slow day..there wasn’t much else to do that day.

  312. RMP,
    Some people on my side of this issue are horse’s asses. I don’t mind telling them so. I wish they’d shut up.

    Christ, we even have people on our side who voted for Bush! How stupid is that?

    I don’t write so much to win converts but simply to expose the lies and insanity of a bunch of people like the 500 pound lesbian who spread propaganda that gets in the way of parents learning the truth. The arguments I hear from science blogs and skeptics are so stupid that they usually aren’t worth bothering with.

    Here we are telling people that we’ve been able to cure some kids of autism by removing mercury from their brains. Not once have I been asked for the specifics of how we’ve managed to accomplish this by any of you science wizards. All I ever hear is inane demands for studies and peer reviewed papers. None of you want to hear about the miniscule improvements we see that grow into some incredible progress that has never been seen as long as autisn has existed.

    Your opposition is so obviously slanted as a defense of drug companies that has nothing to do with science that you have all made yourselves look like a bunch of jackasses who want to hurt children. The only science that matters here is that autistic kids are getting better. You should be happy they won’t be a tax burden to you when they grow up and you should thank people like me and Tim for making that happen.

  313. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Tell it like it is Johnny!

  314. So you crazy kids know, I liveblogged his latest speech if you’d like to hear about it.

  315. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    We don’t seem to hear much from Tm2loose, Stu, or Sungod anymore. I wonder if they are busy reading Dr Jepson’s book!

  316. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Dear RMP..Thanks very much for explaining your interest in the mercury-autism issue..I admire your dedication to helping your wife. What is the name of your company? What products do you manufacture?

  317. Thanks for your interest Tim but I think I’ve reached the edge of my comfort zone regarding my privacy. Please don’t take any offense.

  318. Tim, any progress on getting the data you were looking for?

  319. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    I have not received a reply from Diane yet..I think she may be sending some materials by snail-mail with the chelation meds..don’t forget..all the answers to your questions can be found in Dr Jepson’s book…I assume that you do live within driving distance of a Borders bookstore. I was very pleased when John wrote ” ..the only science that matters here is that autistic kids are getting better”..’..Amen to that!…I will give you an example of the “data” that John and I are looking for…today I was with my daughter at the local Kwik-Trip station when my daughter smiled at me and then looked me straight in the eye and said “Cherie is coming tomorrow!”….That was my previously non-verbal daughter who never used to look anybody straight in the eye looking me staright in the eye and letting me know that her favorite respite-care worker was coming over tomorrow to spend the day with her and her smile let me know that she was very pleased about that. That is the data that matters for fathers like John and myself who cannot afford the luxury of being wrong.The quality of our children’s lives depends on every decision we make. John and I stand to lose all we hold dear if we don’t get every decision right… Ain’t that right John? Still we hear nothing from 2loose, SunGod, or Mr Pid! I hope that all three of them are busy reading Dr Jepson’s book. I wish I had the luxury of being a disinterested observer with nothing to loose.

  320. Tim,
    No data will ever satisfy these cowards. Their privacy is a big deal because they don’t want to be publicly exposed for the child abusing sadists that they are.

    The trillions of dollars that Pharma stands to lose have produced lots of anonymous nitwits to spread the propaganda about vaccines being blameless for autism.

    You could show these liars before and after videos of cured kids, produce a hospital record of chelation and associated testing and they’d claim the kids had a miraculous recovery that had nothing to do with any biomedical interventions. They have to remain anonymous so decent parents don’t punch their lights out when they meet them face to face.

  321. John, you call me a coward and then say I have to remain anonymous so decent parents don’t punch my lights out. OK, I admit to making an mistake. That mistake being when I let you out of the dungeon. You’re free to rant away all you want, but expect no reply from me.

    Tim, John is wrong when he says that no data will ever satisfy these cowards (me). I’ve made it very clear that I am VERY SKEPTICAL about Dr. Scott being able to show that his treatment shows up as a measurable reduction of mercury in your daughters system. BUT, if he does provide that information you/he will get an apology from me for doubting that.

  322. RMP,
    I know you can’t reply to me because anything you have to say is ridiculous compared to what we’ve done to cure autism.

    Would you be asking for proof if we told you we cured myopia by giving a kid glasses? No, if glasses had just been invented, you’d be asking where you could buy glasses for someone you knew with myopia. So, why aren’t you asking about the methods we used to cure autism instead of stupidly demanding lab resuslts?

    Will you answer that honestly by stating that you think you have a good reason to defend vaccine manufacturers no matter how corrupt they are?

  323. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Dear RMP..Today we received a package of Sheryl’s chelation meds but we did not received any materials answering your questions..I was hoping that maybe Diane would have sent a reply by email but she did not. I am a bit reluctant to press her for a reply because the clinic is understaffed right now and I want to stay in Diane’s good graces….She is one lady who is doing the work of four people…perhaps I will try again later in the week. In any case..all of your questions can be answerd by purchasing a copy of “Changing the Course of Autism” by Bryan Jepson..His treatments are indentical to Dr Scott’s so I am completely confident that all of the information you seek is in that book….P.S…I just orderd what looks to be a great new book..”HE’S NOT AUTISTIC, BUT…..HOW WE PULLED OUR SON FROM THE MOUTH OF THE ABYSS” BY TENNA MERCHENT, m.h..PUBLISHED BY JOYOUS MESSENGER..RETAIL $15.95…AVAILABLE AT http://WWW.AMAZON.COM OR BY CALLING 1-800-247-6553..I SHOULD BE RECEIVING MY COPY IN ABOUT 1 WEEK. I AM WILLING TO BET THAT THIS BOOK WILL STATE THAT TENNA MERCHENT’S CHILD BENEFITTED FROM SOME FORM OF CHELATION THERAPY..I AM ALSO WILLING TO BET THAT THE CHILD WAS DAMAGED BY EXPOSURE TO TOXIC METALS..IS ANYBODY OUT THERE WILING TO BET AGAINST ME? WE DON’T HERE MUCH FROM 2LOOSE, STU, OR SUNGOD ANYMORE DO WE JOHNNY? Hi John…Thanks very much for your reply…I think you are right…However, I do think there is some hope for RMP…there is no hope for Mr LaTrec, Mr Pid, or Mr SunGod though..none whatsoever…

  324. Tim,

    Please understand that I know that you believe you are doing right by your child. In addition, I don’t doubt that Bryan Jepson’s book outlines what you believe to be the correct course of action. All I’m asking for is a small amount of documentation that shows that Dr. Scott is reducing the amount of mercury (or other heavy metal) in your child.

    I’ve got to believe that you understand why I’d question your position if you can’t provide this simple/fundamental piece of data.

  325. Tim, I’m not in your position so I can only surmise how I would act if it were my child. I suspect that I’d constantly be badgering the Dr. about what the mercury levels were and if they were improving. Correct me if I’m off base or out of line.

  326. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Hi RMP..You ask some very good questions….I called Diane at the clinic today to see if anything is being done to answer your questions….She told me that she has given your questions to Dr Scott so that he may answer them personally…You will have to be patient…Dr Scott divides his time between working an ungodly amount of hours at the ER at one of the local hospitals and working ungodly hours at his clinic…Dr Scott is a bit like a like brilliant professor..He cam be a bit tempermental if you push him to much but he is great as long as you are patient..We want to stay in his good graces for Sheryl’s sake….All we can do now is sit back and wait for Dr Scott to give his reply to Diane and she will send it to us asap when she gets it. Regarding your last questions..Would we be badgering Dr Scott about the mercury levels….Her mercury levels are tested once or twice a year depending on when we can get down to LaCrosse….Do we badger Dr Scott about various things??? Let me tell you this..Dr Scott was the 13th medical specialist that we took Sheryl to see. Drs 1-12 practised every kind of specialty you can think of from pediatrics to audiology and everything inbetween….None of them were ever able to help Sheryl in any meaningful way..they couldn’t do jack-shit even if their lives depended on it. Dr Scott was, and is, the only Heavy-Metals specialist she has ever seen…Dr Scott got her speaking when nobody else could….Dr Scott got her to establish eye-contact when nobody else could…Do we badger the guy about anything???..Not on your life! or anybody else’s life for that matter. We see the improvements in eye-contact, We hear the improvements in verbal abilities…We see the cognitive developments, These things are happening right before our eyes and ears. This is an area where I think parents ought to get a little bit more respect from the main-stream medical community…We may not all be rocket-scientists but were are not entirely stupid either.

  327. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Still we hear nothing from 2loose, Stu, or SunGod…I hope they are reading Dr Jepson’s book!

  328. We’ve moved on, Tim. Not all of us enjoy focusing our attention on a single comment thread.

  329. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    Well for goodness sake! SunGod is walking where Pid and 2loose fear to tread! You three can’t defend your positions.

  330. Tim, for what it’s worth, it’s been approx 3 weeks since I’ve asked for a small snippet of documentation that says the treatments are reducing the mercury in your child. Do you anticipate this documentation soon?

  331. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    I talked to Diane last week and she assured me that Dr Scott had received your questions. She assured me that if Dr Scott replies to your questions she will forward his answers as quickly as possible..So far she has not received any reply from him….I have done everything that we agreed to..I am just as interested in getting a reply from him as you are…In the mean time….there is a terrific new book out called “Healing the New Childhood Epidemics:..Autism, Adhd, Asthma, and Allergies” By Kenneth Bock M.D. and Cameron Stauth…It has a chapter on the safety of chelation…I will post it tomorrow…Do you have access to a Borders or a Barnes & Noble Bookstore?

  332. Tim Ziegeweid · ·

    “HEALING THE NEW CHILDHOOD EPIDEMICS” KENNETH BOCK M.D. AND CAMERON STAUTH. BALANTINE BOOKS. CHELATION TO TREAT AUTISM, SAFETY FIRST.PP308-310. “The primary reason that there are some rumors circulating amoung the public that chelation might be dangerous for kids is because two children died during recent years when they were mistakenly given the wrong drug during chelation treatments. Some news reports, particularly those that appeared immediately after the deaths, gave the mistaken impression that the deaths occured because of the procedure itself, rather than because the wrong drug was used. Chelation, like every medical procedure, must be done properly. If it is not, it can harm patients. Many thousands of chelation treatments have been performed properly, with no adverseeffects, but mistakes can, unfortunately occur. In the two fatal incidents, the cause of death, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, was administration of the wrong drug. the specific problem was that the two children both experienced a sudden gross deficite of calcium, which resulted in cardiac arrest. This deficite of calcium occured because the patients were given the wrong chelation drug-disodium EDTA. Instead, they should have been given calcium EDTA. If they had been given the proper chelating agent, they would not have suffered the sudeen calcium deficite, and the resulting cardiac arrest. The drug that they were given, disodium EDTA, is an FDA-approved drug for certain conditions, including hypercalcimia and digitalis toxicity. However, as a general rule, disodium EDTA should not be administered to children. I do not administer disodium EDTA to children at my own practice. Adults generally respond well to disodium EDTA, though, when it is administered correctly. In fact, disodium EDTA is the medication we are currently using in the large NIH study that is evaluating chelation therapy for cardiovascular disease. Another reason the two deaths may have occured from the administration of disodium EDTA was that the chelation medication was not administerd as a slow intravenous drip. Instead, it was administerd as a relatively fast intravenous push. The slow IV drip method minimizes the possibility of sudden adverse reactions. We are employing the slow IV drip in the NIH study on chelation therapy. When chelating medication is given intravenously, the push method is more convenient for patients, because the drip method in children may take from one to one and a half hours. Also, some doctors feel that the push method may be somewhat more effective. However, as an extra precaution, when most biomedical practicioners administer chelation therapy, they use either oral medication, such as DMSA, or a slow IV drip, using calcium EDTA.” “Chelation is is a terrific modality. It does things that no other treatment can. However, it is clearly more medically invasive than completely natural healing elements, such as the use of vitamin C. It carries some of the same risks as other procedures that employ pharmaceutical medications. Nonetheless, it is quite safe when administerd and moniterd properly. Chelation has been the linchpin in the recoveries of a large number of children. If your child is burdened with heavy metal overload, I strongly urge you to consult with your physician about chelation.” Healing the New Childhood Epidemics..Kenneth Bock, M.D. and Cameron Stauth.

  333. “If your child is burdened with heavy metal overload”.

    That’s my point. I’m not debating the safety or efficacy of chelation when dealing with heavy metal poisoning. I’m just saying that if we were to talk about my high cholesterol, I’d be able to say what my reading was and what effect the medicine had.

  334. It would seem it’s time to pull this bookmark off my list. There doesn’t appear to be any more data showing the reduction of heavy metals as a result of chelation (which then is evident as a subjective improvement in a child’s autistic symptoms).

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