Saddleback’s Civil Forum on the Presidency gave us a chance to look at the candidates, and evaluate their moral compasses. Given that there’s now proof that McCain cheated, and knew the questions beforehand… looks like we learned a little bit more about McCain’s moral compass than we wanted to know. Once a cheater, always a cheater.
Pastor Warren began Saddleback with an explanation of his view for religion’s place in government (YouTube here):
We believe in the separation of church and state, but we do not believe in the separation of faith and politics. Because faith is just a worldview, and everybody has some kind of worldview, and it’s important to know what they are.
Indeed. Warren’s perspective is a mature outlook on how faith and policy intersect, but I question the full extent of its applicability. For sure, while the first amendment guards against religious discrimination and state endorsements of religion, it does not prohibit legislators from looking to their faith, but especially in the wake of recent Supreme Court decisions, faith alone can only go so far as a legal justification. One ought not be able to justify otherwise unwise or irrational policy decisions based on faith alone. Whether our candidates believe that faith alone can justify an irrational law is an important thing to know about that individual’s “worldview.” Lucky for us, John McCain has already given us his perspective on religion & leadership -
- and that is, if you’re not a Christian, get out. I would not expect a mature philosophical understanding of the nexus between church and state from John McCain.
Ames, as a lawyer, you are allowing that other site to make a very weak case for you. Warren asked two questions and McCain answered yes on both (more accountability and merit-based pay) then added a third item himself (getting rid of bad teachers).
If that’s all you have I think we’ve got an acquittal.
Posted by Progressive Conservative | August 18, 2008, 1:13 pmWhat case are you referring to?
Posted by Ames | August 18, 2008, 1:23 pmThe case that he cheated.
Posted by Progressive Conservative | August 18, 2008, 1:45 pmFaith doesn’t excuse unconstitutionality, but Warren’s (correct) point is that deriving one’s tablet of goods from faith is just as good and rational as getting values from anywhere else. If those Court decisions are at all justifiable from a moral perspective (I leave the legal aspects to you), they need to have held that faith -and- every other method of valuation can only go so far as a legal justification.
Also, this: “One ought not be able to justify otherwise unwise or irrational policy decisions based on faith alone” begs the question. No decision is rational divorced of any motivation. You’re either assuming that there’s some rational basis for decisions outside of sets of values or that faith is somehow inferior to other methods of valuation.
What we can say is that faith (or any method of valuation) alone does not justify the violation of foundational principles of American justice found in the constitution. The whole point of the first amendment is that if you’re not directly hurting anyone (offense doesn’t count), then the government can’t touch you. I don’t know all the legal aspects of it, but, ethically speaking, Lawrence could have been decided on freedom of religion grounds. I agree with the Court’s result, but I have to agree with Scalia that Kennedy’s decision is idiotic.
Posted by Gotchaye | August 18, 2008, 1:45 pmI found that whole event to be disturbing. Christianity doesn’t deserve to be put on some pedestal like it’s some how better or more relevant than Islam or Judaism or any religion. As a matter of fact evangelical christianity shouldn’t event be taken seriously at all because those are the same fools who brought the Bush regime to power in the first place.
Posted by Aaron | August 18, 2008, 3:12 pmI don’t think Kennedy’s decision is that idiotic; as an expansion of substantive due process, or confirmation that what people do behind bedrooms to each other isn’t of interest to anyone else, it’s perfectly rational, and expected given the jurisprudence as it existed. That’s a compelling point that all laws must have some basis, but I am quite happy saying that arbitrary faith is less compelling than simple, fundamental axioms of law – JS Mill’s right to do what you want so long as it doesn’t infringe upon others, for example – and less compelling that aspects of our civic religion, the Constitution and the law.
As to PC, you’re right that the evidence is weak and circumstantial, but we’ve gone on less when going to war. “Not in cone of silence when he was supposed to be” means ample opportunities to cheat, coupled with a few more-than-quick answers, at least gives suspicion.
Posted by Ames | August 18, 2008, 5:00 pmI was referring mostly to the “our obligation is to define the liberty of all, not to mandate our own moral code” line that you highlighted in another of your posts on the issue. Without some huge caveats, Scalia’s completely right that this principle, applied consistently, destroys the rule of law by undermining the basis of all law.
To go at all in depth into the political philosophy here would take pages and pages of text, but suffice to say that “simple, fundamental axioms of law” don’t really provide a basis for legislation – they provide a basis for the lack of legislation. And it’s worth pointing out that even these ‘simple, fundamental axioms’ are pretty arbitrary and even a bit dated on face – why exactly do we not consider psychological harms like offense as infringement in an age when we understand that one’s psychological responses are unwilled and not a product of the virtue of one’s soul? Even Mill’s empirical reasoning is very easy to pick apart. Regardless, Mill’s criterion doesn’t say much about which laws Congress ought to pass – it only says that there are certain kinds of laws that we ought not to pass. “Leave others alone as long as they’re not physically hurting anybody” isn’t really a reason to -do- anything; you want universal health care, a reformed electoral college, gay marriage, and legal abortion, and all of this requires that you will the legislation of your arbitrary personal morals.
I agree with you entirely that our Constitution essentially enshrines Mill’s criterion as the law of the land via the first amendment, and I think one can use that to compellingly argue that the Court came to the right end result on Lawrence, but that just doesn’t look like the way that Kennedy got there. He seems to believe that imposing our morals on society is simply wrong, period, and he compounds his error by taking as given that one can sensibly define ‘liberty’ without already mandating one’s moral code (this is, of course, bunk – for every imaginable ‘right’ and ‘harm’, one can produce another ‘right’ and ‘harm’ that contradict them entirely, and to choose which ‘right’ is to be protected and which ‘harm’ is to be minimized is to bring in external, albeit near-universal, valuations).
Posted by Gotchaye | August 19, 2008, 1:15 amFor the above, note that gay marriage involves governmental recognition and benefits and legal abortion involves the determination of a fetus’ personhood and a potential weighing of rights; they can’t be decided on strictly negative grounds. Regardless, consider universal health care, redistributive taxation, etc.
Posted by Gotchaye | August 19, 2008, 1:20 amThose’re both good points; admittedly, unless some objective form of morality, or positive criterion for state action exists, Kennedy’s opinion DOES destroy the rule of law. I’m going to have to think about that point… I know how it works in practice, and it works well, but it is problematic in theory.
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