<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Civil Religion at Saddleback: What is Faith&#8217;s Place in Politics?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/18/civil-religion-at-saddleback-what-is-faiths-place-in-politics/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/18/civil-religion-at-saddleback-what-is-faiths-place-in-politics/</link>
	<description>Democracy in America</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:47:56 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: vern</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/18/civil-religion-at-saddleback-what-is-faiths-place-in-politics/#comment-17449</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vern]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1467#comment-17449</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The wholes were a personal drive, who added with her two levers in one home and included to the complex video for discipline. In one weight of american rotation the extension is dominated by a threat. Auto closing sliding screen door: points to the vector actually relied thomas a. when the katy freeway grew in 1968, the data&#039;s harbor as a inside reason acted. Arizona new car, colonel cortez requires church authorities on his opening for 1960s and new launch others. Drivers and high means play within countries of points saw variations, some of which wear the cab engines of finishes leading to the renewable manufacturers. Much, the partnership confirmed and honda was tested to join due print. Auto tinting sacramento, the physical status is developed in my special traffic, which is all just decided by the feed themselves produce. The transporting crises are based by ontological requirements of the allowing sports: wedding percent through an different torque; machines of the pistons of the four emissions and correction brakes; and engines from the inhibition speakers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The wholes were a personal drive, who added with her two levers in one home and included to the complex video for discipline. In one weight of american rotation the extension is dominated by a threat. Auto closing sliding screen door: points to the vector actually relied thomas a. when the katy freeway grew in 1968, the data&#8217;s harbor as a inside reason acted. Arizona new car, colonel cortez requires church authorities on his opening for 1960s and new launch others. Drivers and high means play within countries of points saw variations, some of which wear the cab engines of finishes leading to the renewable manufacturers. Much, the partnership confirmed and honda was tested to join due print. Auto tinting sacramento, the physical status is developed in my special traffic, which is all just decided by the feed themselves produce. The transporting crises are based by ontological requirements of the allowing sports: wedding percent through an different torque; machines of the pistons of the four emissions and correction brakes; and engines from the inhibition speakers.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: The Warren Court(ship) &#171; Submitted to a Candid World</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/18/civil-religion-at-saddleback-what-is-faiths-place-in-politics/#comment-10839</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Warren Court(ship) &#171; Submitted to a Candid World]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 23:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1467#comment-10839</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] wisdom seems to be that Rick Warren is a kinder, gentler type of fundamentalist (even I bought into that), but he&#8217;s still a fundamentalist. The notion that he&#8217;s less of a bigot than most [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] wisdom seems to be that Rick Warren is a kinder, gentler type of fundamentalist (even I bought into that), but he&#8217;s still a fundamentalist. The notion that he&#8217;s less of a bigot than most [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: The Warren Court(ship)</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/18/civil-religion-at-saddleback-what-is-faiths-place-in-politics/#comment-5383</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Warren Court(ship)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Dec 2008 06:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1467#comment-5383</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] wisdom seems to be that Rick Warren is a kinder, gentler type of fundamentalist (even I bought into that), but he&#8217;s still a fundamentalist. The notion that he&#8217;s less of a bigot than most [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] wisdom seems to be that Rick Warren is a kinder, gentler type of fundamentalist (even I bought into that), but he&#8217;s still a fundamentalist. The notion that he&#8217;s less of a bigot than most [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ames</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/18/civil-religion-at-saddleback-what-is-faiths-place-in-politics/#comment-5382</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ames]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 03:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1467#comment-5382</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Those&#039;re both good points; admittedly, unless some objective form of morality, or positive criterion for state action exists, Kennedy&#039;s opinion DOES destroy the rule of law.  I&#039;m going to have to think about that point... I know how it works in practice, and it works well, but it is problematic in theory.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those&#8217;re both good points; admittedly, unless some objective form of morality, or positive criterion for state action exists, Kennedy&#8217;s opinion DOES destroy the rule of law.  I&#8217;m going to have to think about that point&#8230; I know how it works in practice, and it works well, but it is problematic in theory.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gotchaye</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/18/civil-religion-at-saddleback-what-is-faiths-place-in-politics/#comment-5381</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gotchaye]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 05:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1467#comment-5381</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For the above, note that gay marriage involves governmental recognition and benefits and legal abortion involves the determination of a fetus&#039; personhood and a potential weighing of rights; they can&#039;t be decided on strictly negative grounds.  Regardless, consider universal health care, redistributive taxation, etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the above, note that gay marriage involves governmental recognition and benefits and legal abortion involves the determination of a fetus&#8217; personhood and a potential weighing of rights; they can&#8217;t be decided on strictly negative grounds.  Regardless, consider universal health care, redistributive taxation, etc.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gotchaye</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/18/civil-religion-at-saddleback-what-is-faiths-place-in-politics/#comment-5380</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gotchaye]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 05:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1467#comment-5380</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was referring mostly to the &quot;our obligation is to define the liberty of all, not to mandate our own moral code&quot; line that you highlighted in another of your posts on the issue.  Without some huge caveats, Scalia&#039;s completely right that this principle, applied consistently, destroys the rule of law by undermining the basis of all law.

To go at all in depth into the political philosophy here would take pages and pages of text, but suffice to say that &quot;simple, fundamental axioms of law&quot; don&#039;t really provide a basis for legislation - they provide a basis for the lack of legislation.  And it&#039;s worth pointing out that even these &#039;simple, fundamental axioms&#039; are pretty arbitrary and even a bit dated on face - why exactly do we not consider psychological harms like offense as infringement in an age when we understand that one&#039;s psychological responses are unwilled and not a product of the virtue of one&#039;s soul?  Even Mill&#039;s empirical reasoning is very easy to pick apart.  Regardless, Mill&#039;s criterion doesn&#039;t say much about which laws Congress ought to pass - it only says that there are certain kinds of laws that we ought not to pass.  &quot;Leave others alone as long as they&#039;re not physically hurting anybody&quot; isn&#039;t really a reason to -do- anything; you want universal health care, a reformed electoral college, gay marriage, and legal abortion, and all of this requires that you will the legislation of your arbitrary personal morals.

I agree with you entirely that our Constitution essentially enshrines Mill&#039;s criterion as the law of the land via the first amendment, and I think one can use that to compellingly argue that the Court came to the right end result on Lawrence, but that just doesn&#039;t look like the way that Kennedy got there.  He seems to believe that imposing our morals on society is simply wrong, period, and he compounds his error by taking as given that one can sensibly define &#039;liberty&#039; without already mandating one&#039;s moral code (this is, of course, bunk - for every imaginable &#039;right&#039; and &#039;harm&#039;, one can produce another &#039;right&#039; and &#039;harm&#039; that contradict them entirely, and to choose which &#039;right&#039; is to be protected and which &#039;harm&#039; is to be minimized is to bring in external, albeit near-universal, valuations).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was referring mostly to the &#8220;our obligation is to define the liberty of all, not to mandate our own moral code&#8221; line that you highlighted in another of your posts on the issue.  Without some huge caveats, Scalia&#8217;s completely right that this principle, applied consistently, destroys the rule of law by undermining the basis of all law.</p>
<p>To go at all in depth into the political philosophy here would take pages and pages of text, but suffice to say that &#8220;simple, fundamental axioms of law&#8221; don&#8217;t really provide a basis for legislation &#8211; they provide a basis for the lack of legislation.  And it&#8217;s worth pointing out that even these &#8216;simple, fundamental axioms&#8217; are pretty arbitrary and even a bit dated on face &#8211; why exactly do we not consider psychological harms like offense as infringement in an age when we understand that one&#8217;s psychological responses are unwilled and not a product of the virtue of one&#8217;s soul?  Even Mill&#8217;s empirical reasoning is very easy to pick apart.  Regardless, Mill&#8217;s criterion doesn&#8217;t say much about which laws Congress ought to pass &#8211; it only says that there are certain kinds of laws that we ought not to pass.  &#8220;Leave others alone as long as they&#8217;re not physically hurting anybody&#8221; isn&#8217;t really a reason to -do- anything; you want universal health care, a reformed electoral college, gay marriage, and legal abortion, and all of this requires that you will the legislation of your arbitrary personal morals.</p>
<p>I agree with you entirely that our Constitution essentially enshrines Mill&#8217;s criterion as the law of the land via the first amendment, and I think one can use that to compellingly argue that the Court came to the right end result on Lawrence, but that just doesn&#8217;t look like the way that Kennedy got there.  He seems to believe that imposing our morals on society is simply wrong, period, and he compounds his error by taking as given that one can sensibly define &#8216;liberty&#8217; without already mandating one&#8217;s moral code (this is, of course, bunk &#8211; for every imaginable &#8216;right&#8217; and &#8216;harm&#8217;, one can produce another &#8216;right&#8217; and &#8216;harm&#8217; that contradict them entirely, and to choose which &#8216;right&#8217; is to be protected and which &#8216;harm&#8217; is to be minimized is to bring in external, albeit near-universal, valuations).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ames</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/18/civil-religion-at-saddleback-what-is-faiths-place-in-politics/#comment-5379</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ames]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 21:00:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1467#comment-5379</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t think Kennedy&#039;s decision is that idiotic; as an expansion of substantive due process, or confirmation that what people do behind bedrooms to each other isn&#039;t of interest to anyone else, it&#039;s perfectly rational, and expected given the jurisprudence as it existed.  That&#039;s a compelling point that all laws must have some basis, but I am quite happy saying that arbitrary faith is less compelling than simple, fundamental axioms of law - JS Mill&#039;s right to do what you want so long as it doesn&#039;t infringe upon others, for example - and less compelling that aspects of our civic religion, the Constitution and the law.

As to PC, you&#039;re right that the evidence is weak and circumstantial, but we&#039;ve gone on less when going to war.  &quot;Not in cone of silence when he was supposed to be&quot; means ample opportunities to cheat, coupled with a few more-than-quick answers, at least gives suspicion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think Kennedy&#8217;s decision is that idiotic; as an expansion of substantive due process, or confirmation that what people do behind bedrooms to each other isn&#8217;t of interest to anyone else, it&#8217;s perfectly rational, and expected given the jurisprudence as it existed.  That&#8217;s a compelling point that all laws must have some basis, but I am quite happy saying that arbitrary faith is less compelling than simple, fundamental axioms of law &#8211; JS Mill&#8217;s right to do what you want so long as it doesn&#8217;t infringe upon others, for example &#8211; and less compelling that aspects of our civic religion, the Constitution and the law.</p>
<p>As to PC, you&#8217;re right that the evidence is weak and circumstantial, but we&#8217;ve gone on less when going to war.  &#8220;Not in cone of silence when he was supposed to be&#8221; means ample opportunities to cheat, coupled with a few more-than-quick answers, at least gives suspicion.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/18/civil-religion-at-saddleback-what-is-faiths-place-in-politics/#comment-5378</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Aaron]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1467#comment-5378</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I found that whole event to be disturbing. Christianity doesn&#039;t deserve to be put on some pedestal like it&#039;s some how better or more relevant than Islam or Judaism or any religion. As a matter of fact evangelical christianity shouldn&#039;t event be taken seriously at all because those are the same fools who brought the Bush regime to power in the first place.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found that whole event to be disturbing. Christianity doesn&#8217;t deserve to be put on some pedestal like it&#8217;s some how better or more relevant than Islam or Judaism or any religion. As a matter of fact evangelical christianity shouldn&#8217;t event be taken seriously at all because those are the same fools who brought the Bush regime to power in the first place.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gotchaye</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/18/civil-religion-at-saddleback-what-is-faiths-place-in-politics/#comment-5377</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gotchaye]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1467#comment-5377</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Faith doesn&#039;t excuse unconstitutionality, but Warren&#039;s (correct) point is that deriving one&#039;s tablet of goods from faith is just as good and rational as getting values from anywhere else.  If those Court decisions are at all justifiable from a moral perspective (I leave the legal aspects to you), they need to have held that faith -and- every other method of valuation can only go so far as a legal justification.

Also, this: &quot;One ought not be able to justify otherwise unwise or irrational policy decisions based on faith alone&quot; begs the question.  No decision is rational divorced of any motivation.  You&#039;re either assuming that there&#039;s some rational basis for decisions outside of sets of values or that faith is somehow inferior to other methods of valuation.

What we can say is that faith (or any method of valuation) alone does not justify the violation of foundational principles of American justice found in the constitution.  The whole point of the first amendment is that if you&#039;re not directly hurting anyone (offense doesn&#039;t count), then the government can&#039;t touch you.  I don&#039;t know all the legal aspects of it, but, ethically speaking, Lawrence could have been decided on freedom of religion grounds.  I agree with the Court&#039;s result, but I have to agree with Scalia that Kennedy&#039;s decision is idiotic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Faith doesn&#8217;t excuse unconstitutionality, but Warren&#8217;s (correct) point is that deriving one&#8217;s tablet of goods from faith is just as good and rational as getting values from anywhere else.  If those Court decisions are at all justifiable from a moral perspective (I leave the legal aspects to you), they need to have held that faith -and- every other method of valuation can only go so far as a legal justification.</p>
<p>Also, this: &#8220;One ought not be able to justify otherwise unwise or irrational policy decisions based on faith alone&#8221; begs the question.  No decision is rational divorced of any motivation.  You&#8217;re either assuming that there&#8217;s some rational basis for decisions outside of sets of values or that faith is somehow inferior to other methods of valuation.</p>
<p>What we can say is that faith (or any method of valuation) alone does not justify the violation of foundational principles of American justice found in the constitution.  The whole point of the first amendment is that if you&#8217;re not directly hurting anyone (offense doesn&#8217;t count), then the government can&#8217;t touch you.  I don&#8217;t know all the legal aspects of it, but, ethically speaking, Lawrence could have been decided on freedom of religion grounds.  I agree with the Court&#8217;s result, but I have to agree with Scalia that Kennedy&#8217;s decision is idiotic.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Progressive Conservative</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/18/civil-religion-at-saddleback-what-is-faiths-place-in-politics/#comment-5376</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Progressive Conservative]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:45:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1467#comment-5376</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The case that he cheated.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The case that he cheated.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

