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	<title>Comments on: HHS Followup: Abortion, Contraceptives, and Physicians&#8217; Rights of Conscience</title>
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	<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/20/hhs-followup-abortion-contraceptives-and-physicians-rights-of-conscience/</link>
	<description>"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.... let Facts be submitted to a candid world."</description>
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		<title>By: Ames</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/20/hhs-followup-abortion-contraceptives-and-physicians-rights-of-conscience/#comment-5480</link>
		<dc:creator>Ames</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 20:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1572#comment-5480</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;re still around, Tim, I&#039;d be happy to discuss this with you, but if this is just a drive-by &quot;You&#039;re Hitler!&quot;-ing, count me out :).

By the way, one quick point, as to this - &quot;life begins at the moment of conception otherwise the woman’s body would discard/discharge the &#039;dead&#039; &#039;blob of tissue&#039; - just like it does the UNfertilized egg every 28 or so day&quot; - the question is a moral one, not biological.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;re still around, Tim, I&#8217;d be happy to discuss this with you, but if this is just a drive-by &#8220;You&#8217;re Hitler!&#8221;-ing, count me out :).</p>
<p>By the way, one quick point, as to this &#8211; &#8220;life begins at the moment of conception otherwise the woman’s body would discard/discharge the &#8216;dead&#8217; &#8216;blob of tissue&#8217; &#8211; just like it does the UNfertilized egg every 28 or so day&#8221; &#8211; the question is a moral one, not biological.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/20/hhs-followup-abortion-contraceptives-and-physicians-rights-of-conscience/#comment-5479</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 14:48:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1572#comment-5479</guid>
		<description>Let me get this straight - you will fight to imprison someone because they refuse to provide a blood transfusion for their child but you fight to force a doctor to kill an unborn child?  What kind of lunatic reasoning is that?  You base everything on what &quot;you&quot; want, your comfort, you deserve what you want - even if it involves the taking of a human life!  You are selfish and narcissistic!  What right do you have to tell a doctor, who has sworn to do no harm, he has to kill your unborn child?  If you want a &quot;service&quot; as you call it, find some lowlife doctor that doesn&#039;t care whether he murders someone or not!  Where is YOUR conscience?  I for one taxpayer am tired of the federal government spending MY tax dollars on doing exactly the same things we condemn Hitler and Stalin for doing!  Look at the path that Germany took, that Russia/Soviet Union took and compare the path that we as a country are taking.  Freedom is not absolute freedom! You are not free to do ANYTHING you want.  There is another side of the coin of freedom.  It&#039;s called RESPONSIBILITY.

The same path was taken with marriage and divorce - first it was the sanctity of marriage until it became the &quot;quality&quot; of marriage.  Now it&#039;s &quot;What is marriage, really?&quot;  First it was the sanctity of life until it became the &quot;quality&quot; of life.  Now it&#039;s &quot;Well, when does life REALLY begin?&quot; and  &quot;We don&#039;t have a right to tell a woman what to do with her body.&quot;  Now it&#039;s &quot;You don&#039;t have a right to obey your conscience and refuse to provide me an ELECTIVE PROCEDURE!&quot;

By the way, life begins at the moment of conception otherwise the woman&#039;s body would discard/discharge the &quot;dead&quot; &quot;blob of tissue&quot; - just like it does the UNfertilized egg every 28 or so days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me get this straight &#8211; you will fight to imprison someone because they refuse to provide a blood transfusion for their child but you fight to force a doctor to kill an unborn child?  What kind of lunatic reasoning is that?  You base everything on what &#8220;you&#8221; want, your comfort, you deserve what you want &#8211; even if it involves the taking of a human life!  You are selfish and narcissistic!  What right do you have to tell a doctor, who has sworn to do no harm, he has to kill your unborn child?  If you want a &#8220;service&#8221; as you call it, find some lowlife doctor that doesn&#8217;t care whether he murders someone or not!  Where is YOUR conscience?  I for one taxpayer am tired of the federal government spending MY tax dollars on doing exactly the same things we condemn Hitler and Stalin for doing!  Look at the path that Germany took, that Russia/Soviet Union took and compare the path that we as a country are taking.  Freedom is not absolute freedom! You are not free to do ANYTHING you want.  There is another side of the coin of freedom.  It&#8217;s called RESPONSIBILITY.</p>
<p>The same path was taken with marriage and divorce &#8211; first it was the sanctity of marriage until it became the &#8220;quality&#8221; of marriage.  Now it&#8217;s &#8220;What is marriage, really?&#8221;  First it was the sanctity of life until it became the &#8220;quality&#8221; of life.  Now it&#8217;s &#8220;Well, when does life REALLY begin?&#8221; and  &#8220;We don&#8217;t have a right to tell a woman what to do with her body.&#8221;  Now it&#8217;s &#8220;You don&#8217;t have a right to obey your conscience and refuse to provide me an ELECTIVE PROCEDURE!&#8221;</p>
<p>By the way, life begins at the moment of conception otherwise the woman&#8217;s body would discard/discharge the &#8220;dead&#8221; &#8220;blob of tissue&#8221; &#8211; just like it does the UNfertilized egg every 28 or so days.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Leavitt to patients: &#34;F*** you&#34; [denialism blog]</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/20/hhs-followup-abortion-contraceptives-and-physicians-rights-of-conscience/#comment-5478</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Leavitt to patients: &#34;F*** you&#34; [denialism blog]</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 07:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1572#comment-5478</guid>
		<description>[...] A number of us in the blogosphere have been outraged by Bush&#8217;s Department of Health and Human Services&#8217; desire to put the arbitrary wants of doctors before the needs of patients. At first it was just a draft proposal, but now Mike Leavitt is pushing to implement the changes. Soon, it may be legally acceptable to deny you a needed health service because the health care provider thinks your decisions are immoral. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A number of us in the blogosphere have been outraged by Bush&#8217;s Department of Health and Human Services&#8217; desire to put the arbitrary wants of doctors before the needs of patients. At first it was just a draft proposal, but now Mike Leavitt is pushing to implement the changes. Soon, it may be legally acceptable to deny you a needed health service because the health care provider thinks your decisions are immoral. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gotchaye</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/20/hhs-followup-abortion-contraceptives-and-physicians-rights-of-conscience/#comment-5475</link>
		<dc:creator>Gotchaye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 19:07:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1572#comment-5475</guid>
		<description>DM, you&#039;ve addressed some of my concerns, but I&#039;m still confused by some of the language I&#039;ve seen thrown around.

With abortion being a legal procedure, I have no problem with laws that protect the ability of women to get them, and I have no problem opposing laws that make it significantly harder for women to get them.  My concern is that, mostly in other threads, I&#039;ve read Ames and others as intimating that a pro-lifer simply has no business being a doctor.  There was a thread a while back where someone compared a pro-life doctor to a scientologist psychiatrist.  It doesn&#039;t seem to present society with an undue burden to make sure that there remains a place for pro-life doctors, and abortion isn&#039;t nearly as central to the practice of medicine as psychiatry is to, well, psychiatry.  As you say, lots of doctors don&#039;t perform abortions, and, for half of patients, one can very reliably predict in advance that they&#039;ll never be interested in getting one, and so it doesn&#039;t seem to me that a pro-lifer can&#039;t be a valuable doctor.

It&#039;s also worth noting that abortion is special in that it can&#039;t be decided on &quot;do no harm&quot; grounds.  As was discussed in another thread, the fact that deciding the moral issue at stake requires the determination of the number of persons involved means that there&#039;s no obvious &#039;libertarian&#039; position (everyone agrees that Jackson&#039;s nose has no rights of its own).  Unless the Hippocratic Oath can obligate doctors to murder a third party in order to further their patient&#039;s interest, it cannot unambiguously require a doctor to perform an abortion, nor can it even unambiguously permit one.  That the Supreme Court also doesn&#039;t seem to understand that the determination of personhood is so central to the abortion issue is the main reason that I think political justice requires the repeal of Roe, even though I&#039;m probably more thoroughly pro-choice than most here.

Your question is interesting.  I don&#039;t know what would happen.  That would also hit the pro-choice movement pretty hard too, and for the same reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DM, you&#8217;ve addressed some of my concerns, but I&#8217;m still confused by some of the language I&#8217;ve seen thrown around.</p>
<p>With abortion being a legal procedure, I have no problem with laws that protect the ability of women to get them, and I have no problem opposing laws that make it significantly harder for women to get them.  My concern is that, mostly in other threads, I&#8217;ve read Ames and others as intimating that a pro-lifer simply has no business being a doctor.  There was a thread a while back where someone compared a pro-life doctor to a scientologist psychiatrist.  It doesn&#8217;t seem to present society with an undue burden to make sure that there remains a place for pro-life doctors, and abortion isn&#8217;t nearly as central to the practice of medicine as psychiatry is to, well, psychiatry.  As you say, lots of doctors don&#8217;t perform abortions, and, for half of patients, one can very reliably predict in advance that they&#8217;ll never be interested in getting one, and so it doesn&#8217;t seem to me that a pro-lifer can&#8217;t be a valuable doctor.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also worth noting that abortion is special in that it can&#8217;t be decided on &#8220;do no harm&#8221; grounds.  As was discussed in another thread, the fact that deciding the moral issue at stake requires the determination of the number of persons involved means that there&#8217;s no obvious &#8216;libertarian&#8217; position (everyone agrees that Jackson&#8217;s nose has no rights of its own).  Unless the Hippocratic Oath can obligate doctors to murder a third party in order to further their patient&#8217;s interest, it cannot unambiguously require a doctor to perform an abortion, nor can it even unambiguously permit one.  That the Supreme Court also doesn&#8217;t seem to understand that the determination of personhood is so central to the abortion issue is the main reason that I think political justice requires the repeal of Roe, even though I&#8217;m probably more thoroughly pro-choice than most here.</p>
<p>Your question is interesting.  I don&#8217;t know what would happen.  That would also hit the pro-choice movement pretty hard too, and for the same reason.</p>
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		<title>By: Ames</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/20/hhs-followup-abortion-contraceptives-and-physicians-rights-of-conscience/#comment-5476</link>
		<dc:creator>Ames</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 17:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1572#comment-5476</guid>
		<description>Hey Danio! Thanks for coming over :-). I did see that but the regulation is, still, crappy for All sorts of reasons. I&#039;m drafting a comment; you should urge Pharyngulites to do the same!

And thanks for the gedner correction :-) oops....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Danio! Thanks for coming over :-). I did see that but the regulation is, still, crappy for All sorts of reasons. I&#8217;m drafting a comment; you should urge Pharyngulites to do the same!</p>
<p>And thanks for the gedner correction :-) oops&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Danio</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/20/hhs-followup-abortion-contraceptives-and-physicians-rights-of-conscience/#comment-5477</link>
		<dc:creator>Danio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 16:19:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1572#comment-5477</guid>
		<description>Thanks for continuing to cover this, Ames.  The &quot;contraception = abortion&quot; language is out of the final policy document, but that certainly doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s no longer an issue.  Threatening health care agencies with losing their funding if they take any action against an employee who serves his or her own moral interests before those of the pateint is federally mandated blackmail.

Your readers might also be interested in Michael Egnor&#039;s nuclear stupidity re: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/08/crackers_conscience_and_pz_mye.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this issue&lt;/a&gt;.

Thanks for the plug, and by the way, I&#039;m a &#039;she&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for continuing to cover this, Ames.  The &#8220;contraception = abortion&#8221; language is out of the final policy document, but that certainly doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s no longer an issue.  Threatening health care agencies with losing their funding if they take any action against an employee who serves his or her own moral interests before those of the pateint is federally mandated blackmail.</p>
<p>Your readers might also be interested in Michael Egnor&#8217;s nuclear stupidity re: <a href="http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/08/crackers_conscience_and_pz_mye.html" rel="nofollow">this issue</a>.</p>
<p>Thanks for the plug, and by the way, I&#8217;m a &#8216;she&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: didionsmommy</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/20/hhs-followup-abortion-contraceptives-and-physicians-rights-of-conscience/#comment-5474</link>
		<dc:creator>didionsmommy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 01:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1572#comment-5474</guid>
		<description>gotchaye ... i think part of the confusion you have might be because there is an image that abortion providers are foaming at the mouth, knives and vacuums in hand, hardly able to wait to abort embryos and fetuses ... what is the lowly pro-life medical student to do?

not true.

women seeking abortions are given access to information on all options. the difference between the approaches of planned parenthood and pregnancy counseling centers is the, er, brainwashing aspect of information delivery. planned parenthood provides information without the manipulation and the preaching.

i agree with ames ... a doctor exists to provide the best care for his or her patient ... the patient that stands before him or her. period. the doctor&#039;s role is not that of moral arbitrator or ... more to the point ... moral manipulator.

his or her patient has decided, most assuredly after a great deal of reflection, that abortion is the best choice. therefore, the doctor is bound by the hippocratic oath to provide the best service possible to insure the patient&#039;s health ... the same way michael jackson&#039;s plastic surgeon is bound by oath to provide the best care possible when he wants to have more of his nose shaved off ... the same way doctors are bound by law (not just oath) to follow a patient&#039;s living will.

the AMA admonishes doctors to avoid specialties that collide with their consciences. that does not bar pro-life doctors from practicing gynecology. there are many, many, many gynecologists who do not perform abortions ... less, i suspect, for moral reasons than for the headache of protests and liability ... and fear for personal safety.

worrying about what doctors are being forced to say to patients is a slightly less serious worry than the problem jennykinx presents. the pro-life movement is winning with death by attrition. good luck trying to find an abortion in missouri ... or other places in the south.

and this attrition has occurred quite well without a script doctors must follow.

***
on a related  note (and not directed toward ANYONE in particular) ... i have often (like, for at least 20 years) wondered this, and i hesitated bringing it up in another comment thread regarding abortion ... but, what the heck ...

i wonder how the pro-life movement would change ... in membership size and composition ... and even in existence ... if every single abortion performed in america was performed on a latina or a black woman. the pro-life movement likes to talk about the one-million babies that would be saved each year. what would happen if that one-million were all black?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gotchaye &#8230; i think part of the confusion you have might be because there is an image that abortion providers are foaming at the mouth, knives and vacuums in hand, hardly able to wait to abort embryos and fetuses &#8230; what is the lowly pro-life medical student to do?</p>
<p>not true.</p>
<p>women seeking abortions are given access to information on all options. the difference between the approaches of planned parenthood and pregnancy counseling centers is the, er, brainwashing aspect of information delivery. planned parenthood provides information without the manipulation and the preaching.</p>
<p>i agree with ames &#8230; a doctor exists to provide the best care for his or her patient &#8230; the patient that stands before him or her. period. the doctor&#8217;s role is not that of moral arbitrator or &#8230; more to the point &#8230; moral manipulator.</p>
<p>his or her patient has decided, most assuredly after a great deal of reflection, that abortion is the best choice. therefore, the doctor is bound by the hippocratic oath to provide the best service possible to insure the patient&#8217;s health &#8230; the same way michael jackson&#8217;s plastic surgeon is bound by oath to provide the best care possible when he wants to have more of his nose shaved off &#8230; the same way doctors are bound by law (not just oath) to follow a patient&#8217;s living will.</p>
<p>the AMA admonishes doctors to avoid specialties that collide with their consciences. that does not bar pro-life doctors from practicing gynecology. there are many, many, many gynecologists who do not perform abortions &#8230; less, i suspect, for moral reasons than for the headache of protests and liability &#8230; and fear for personal safety.</p>
<p>worrying about what doctors are being forced to say to patients is a slightly less serious worry than the problem jennykinx presents. the pro-life movement is winning with death by attrition. good luck trying to find an abortion in missouri &#8230; or other places in the south.</p>
<p>and this attrition has occurred quite well without a script doctors must follow.</p>
<p>***<br />
on a related  note (and not directed toward ANYONE in particular) &#8230; i have often (like, for at least 20 years) wondered this, and i hesitated bringing it up in another comment thread regarding abortion &#8230; but, what the heck &#8230;</p>
<p>i wonder how the pro-life movement would change &#8230; in membership size and composition &#8230; and even in existence &#8230; if every single abortion performed in america was performed on a latina or a black woman. the pro-life movement likes to talk about the one-million babies that would be saved each year. what would happen if that one-million were all black?</p>
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		<title>By: &#8230;On Doing it Twice in a Row. &#171; &#8220;That you may ruminate&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/20/hhs-followup-abortion-contraceptives-and-physicians-rights-of-conscience/#comment-5470</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8230;On Doing it Twice in a Row. &#171; &#8220;That you may ruminate&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:51:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1572#comment-5470</guid>
		<description>[...] it T&#8230; on &#8230;On a Cabinet Secretary&#8230;Ames on &#8230;On a Cabinet Secretary&#8230;HHS Followup: Aborti&#8230; on &#8230;On a Cabinet Secretary&#8230;Ames on &#8230;On the Perversity of &#8230;Steve on [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] it T&hellip; on &#8230;On a Cabinet Secretary&hellip;Ames on &#8230;On a Cabinet Secretary&hellip;HHS Followup: Aborti&hellip; on &#8230;On a Cabinet Secretary&hellip;Ames on &#8230;On the Perversity of &hellip;Steve on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Annie</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/20/hhs-followup-abortion-contraceptives-and-physicians-rights-of-conscience/#comment-5473</link>
		<dc:creator>Annie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 16:28:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1572#comment-5473</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been following Leavitt&#039;s propaganda as policy behavior for a long time (link at my name), and he is nothing if not a Bush loyalist who also manages to get his Mormon religious ideology into health policy. Leavitt&#039;s blogging as a nice guy is simply a ruse to sell poisonous propaganda which undermines science and the legitimate practice autonomy and authority of licensed health professionals, such as physicians and nurses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been following Leavitt&#8217;s propaganda as policy behavior for a long time (link at my name), and he is nothing if not a Bush loyalist who also manages to get his Mormon religious ideology into health policy. Leavitt&#8217;s blogging as a nice guy is simply a ruse to sell poisonous propaganda which undermines science and the legitimate practice autonomy and authority of licensed health professionals, such as physicians and nurses.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennyjinx</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2008/08/20/hhs-followup-abortion-contraceptives-and-physicians-rights-of-conscience/#comment-5472</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennyjinx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:37:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.acandidworld.net/?p=1572#comment-5472</guid>
		<description>I live just outside of a small city (80K) and there is no where within 30 miles for a woman to get an abortion. The town where I&#039;m originally from is 60 miles from the nearest abortion provider. There is no public transportation to get there, from here (or there) which means a low-income woman living in my community would not be able to have the procedure.  So, his assertion that it hasn&#039;t happened yet is wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live just outside of a small city (80K) and there is no where within 30 miles for a woman to get an abortion. The town where I&#8217;m originally from is 60 miles from the nearest abortion provider. There is no public transportation to get there, from here (or there) which means a low-income woman living in my community would not be able to have the procedure.  So, his assertion that it hasn&#8217;t happened yet is wrong.</p>
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