<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Supreme Court Rules in Ricci, Limiting Title VII&#8217;s Antidiscrimination Provisions</title>
	<atom:link href="http://acandidworld.com/2009/06/29/supreme-court-rules-in-ricci/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://acandidworld.com/2009/06/29/supreme-court-rules-in-ricci/</link>
	<description>Democracy in America</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 27 May 2012 05:50:01 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: National Review, Desperate to Spin Ricci, Gets It All Wrong &#171; Submitted to a Candid World</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2009/06/29/supreme-court-rules-in-ricci/#comment-11935</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[National Review, Desperate to Spin Ricci, Gets It All Wrong &#171; Submitted to a Candid World]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:15:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acandidworld.net/?p=9484#comment-11935</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] hardly for the Supreme Court, especially under conservative theories of jurisprudence, to write affirmative defenses into the statute, which is exactly what Kennedy does on page [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] hardly for the Supreme Court, especially under conservative theories of jurisprudence, to write affirmative defenses into the statute, which is exactly what Kennedy does on page [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ACG</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2009/06/29/supreme-court-rules-in-ricci/#comment-11929</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ACG]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acandidworld.net/?p=9484#comment-11929</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s fine, a lot of people have problems with disparate impact standards. But the fact remains that it&#039;s in the statute as written. I agree with you if we assume the test was fair, which a number of people brought into controversy, both before, during, and after its execution. Kennedy starts from the assumption that it worked perfectly - ignoring that part of the record - and that compels his outcome.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s fine, a lot of people have problems with disparate impact standards. But the fact remains that it&#8217;s in the statute as written. I agree with you if we assume the test was fair, which a number of people brought into controversy, both before, during, and after its execution. Kennedy starts from the assumption that it worked perfectly &#8211; ignoring that part of the record &#8211; and that compels his outcome.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2009/06/29/supreme-court-rules-in-ricci/#comment-11899</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 02:16:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acandidworld.net/?p=9484#comment-11899</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ok, that was a long bunch of pages.  And I come out of it... Ginsburg&#039;s dissent wasn&#039;t very convincing, and I don&#039;t just mean on the question of whether or not the test was flawed (although how anyone could give the professor&#039;s testimony any credence, or the competitor&#039;s testimony much credence, is beyond me).  In part, I can blame the precedents: as she describes several of the ones she relies on, I think they should have gone the other way (for instance, I&#039;d have ruled that being required by a freely-negotiated union contract is a legitimate business purpose that blocks disparate impact liability.  It&#039;s part of what gets your workers to agree to working for you - what could be a more legitimate business purpose than that?).  But part of it, she takes all these things that were said about the test &lt;i&gt;after the fact&lt;/i&gt;, uses them to say &lt;i&gt;this is how the test should have been done&lt;/i&gt;, and then says that meets the disparate impact requirement of &lt;/i&gt;there&#039;s a job related less-discriminatory way that the city refuses to do&lt;/i&gt;.  And... you know, that&#039;s something, no two things, I&#039;m not liking about disparate-impact.  The idea of equally job-related but less-discriminatory, that&#039;s where I&#039;m seeing that &quot;Hey, we&#039;ve got to make sure the results meet &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; racial threshold .8X&quot; problem Scalia points out - but it&#039;s also where I&#039;m wondering &quot;Why are you asking if there&#039;s a less-discriminatory alternative instead of a more job-related alternative?&quot;.  I mean, presumably there&#039;s some test that does the best job of determining who objectively deserves to pass/be promoted/be hired/not get fired/live/etc?  And it seems that should be the test to aim for, not whatever less-accurate test has the least disparate impact among irrelevant classifications.  Not to mention, that concept of &quot;fair in form but discriminatory in operation&quot; is wrong.  Form dictates function: Duke Power Company was functioning unfairly to Griggs, et. al. because the company&#039;s system was unfair in form.  The Court mislabeled it, and Congress followed suit.

But getting back to the time frame issue.  It seems to me that by allowing disparate-impact challenges, we&#039;re defeating the point of testing.  The point of a test is to ensure that the worthy [pass] and the unworthy [fail].  In the case of New Haven firefighter tests, to ensure that the eight most Lieutenant-worthy candidates for Lieutenant became Lieutenant and the seven most Captain-worthy candidates became Captain and everybody else didn&#039;t get promoted.  And it seems to me that if the test is going to do a good job or a bad job of measuring worthiness to [pass] is something that can be determined beforehand.  And if someone alleges the test fails at its purpose before hand, there&#039;s an opportunity to 1) unbiasedly and accurately analyze that allegation on the merits and 2) correct the test if necessary 3) with less motivation for people to allege faults that are noise obscuring the signal of valid allegations of fault.  Whereas allowing these after-the-fact disparate impact claims based on a hypothetical disconnect between form and function means the analysis is post-hoc (something to discourage just on principle) in an environment where considerations other than the test&#039;s objective measurement of objective [pass]-worthiness can affect both the analysis (e.g., consideration of the identity or quantity of who passed and who failed) and the allegations of flaws (e.g., &quot;Me fail English? That&#039;s unpossible! Ur test is teh suxorz!&quot;).  Limiting challenges to the test&#039;s validity wouldn&#039;t have eliminated incorrect allegations of flaws, but it would have reduced them and it would eliminate any invidious motives for them (leaving only allegations people who are just plain honestly wrong).  So it seems to me a procedural bar on after-the-fact challenges to a test other than pre-grading challenges by takers to specific elements of the test (&quot;Question 33 was flawed&quot;, &quot;The team we had to lead during the simulation was laypeople, not professional firefighters, and so was unrealistic because we wouldn&#039;t have had to explain technical terms while giving instructions during a real system&quot;) is a good thing.  Hence, a procedural bar on disparate-impact claims... is a good thing, I guess.

And in the end, I read Ginsburg&#039;s statement &quot;they had no vested right to promotion&quot; and want to tell her, &quot;and the people who failed the test had even less.&quot;  Whatever her reasons, she&#039;d give people who failed a do-over, and that doesn&#039;t sit right with me.  Do it once, do it right, or to hell with you - that&#039;s a world worth working to create, but not the one her opinion would move our country towards.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, that was a long bunch of pages.  And I come out of it&#8230; Ginsburg&#8217;s dissent wasn&#8217;t very convincing, and I don&#8217;t just mean on the question of whether or not the test was flawed (although how anyone could give the professor&#8217;s testimony any credence, or the competitor&#8217;s testimony much credence, is beyond me).  In part, I can blame the precedents: as she describes several of the ones she relies on, I think they should have gone the other way (for instance, I&#8217;d have ruled that being required by a freely-negotiated union contract is a legitimate business purpose that blocks disparate impact liability.  It&#8217;s part of what gets your workers to agree to working for you &#8211; what could be a more legitimate business purpose than that?).  But part of it, she takes all these things that were said about the test <i>after the fact</i>, uses them to say <i>this is how the test should have been done</i>, and then says that meets the disparate impact requirement of there&#8217;s a job related less-discriminatory way that the city refuses to do.  And&#8230; you know, that&#8217;s something, no two things, I&#8217;m not liking about disparate-impact.  The idea of equally job-related but less-discriminatory, that&#8217;s where I&#8217;m seeing that &#8220;Hey, we&#8217;ve got to make sure the results meet <i>a priori</i> racial threshold .8X&#8221; problem Scalia points out &#8211; but it&#8217;s also where I&#8217;m wondering &#8220;Why are you asking if there&#8217;s a less-discriminatory alternative instead of a more job-related alternative?&#8221;.  I mean, presumably there&#8217;s some test that does the best job of determining who objectively deserves to pass/be promoted/be hired/not get fired/live/etc?  And it seems that should be the test to aim for, not whatever less-accurate test has the least disparate impact among irrelevant classifications.  Not to mention, that concept of &#8220;fair in form but discriminatory in operation&#8221; is wrong.  Form dictates function: Duke Power Company was functioning unfairly to Griggs, et. al. because the company&#8217;s system was unfair in form.  The Court mislabeled it, and Congress followed suit.</p>
<p>But getting back to the time frame issue.  It seems to me that by allowing disparate-impact challenges, we&#8217;re defeating the point of testing.  The point of a test is to ensure that the worthy [pass] and the unworthy [fail].  In the case of New Haven firefighter tests, to ensure that the eight most Lieutenant-worthy candidates for Lieutenant became Lieutenant and the seven most Captain-worthy candidates became Captain and everybody else didn&#8217;t get promoted.  And it seems to me that if the test is going to do a good job or a bad job of measuring worthiness to [pass] is something that can be determined beforehand.  And if someone alleges the test fails at its purpose before hand, there&#8217;s an opportunity to 1) unbiasedly and accurately analyze that allegation on the merits and 2) correct the test if necessary 3) with less motivation for people to allege faults that are noise obscuring the signal of valid allegations of fault.  Whereas allowing these after-the-fact disparate impact claims based on a hypothetical disconnect between form and function means the analysis is post-hoc (something to discourage just on principle) in an environment where considerations other than the test&#8217;s objective measurement of objective [pass]-worthiness can affect both the analysis (e.g., consideration of the identity or quantity of who passed and who failed) and the allegations of flaws (e.g., &#8220;Me fail English? That&#8217;s unpossible! Ur test is teh suxorz!&#8221;).  Limiting challenges to the test&#8217;s validity wouldn&#8217;t have eliminated incorrect allegations of flaws, but it would have reduced them and it would eliminate any invidious motives for them (leaving only allegations people who are just plain honestly wrong).  So it seems to me a procedural bar on after-the-fact challenges to a test other than pre-grading challenges by takers to specific elements of the test (&#8220;Question 33 was flawed&#8221;, &#8220;The team we had to lead during the simulation was laypeople, not professional firefighters, and so was unrealistic because we wouldn&#8217;t have had to explain technical terms while giving instructions during a real system&#8221;) is a good thing.  Hence, a procedural bar on disparate-impact claims&#8230; is a good thing, I guess.</p>
<p>And in the end, I read Ginsburg&#8217;s statement &#8220;they had no vested right to promotion&#8221; and want to tell her, &#8220;and the people who failed the test had even less.&#8221;  Whatever her reasons, she&#8217;d give people who failed a do-over, and that doesn&#8217;t sit right with me.  Do it once, do it right, or to hell with you &#8211; that&#8217;s a world worth working to create, but not the one her opinion would move our country towards.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ACG</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2009/06/29/supreme-court-rules-in-ricci/#comment-11895</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ACG]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acandidworld.net/?p=9484#comment-11895</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, Justice Scalia&#039;s answer, plainly, is &quot;it can&#039;t.&quot; But I don&#039;t think that&#039;s right (surprise!!!!). Disparate impact only applies when a company implements a policy that can&#039;t be backed up with a legitimate business purpose. If the test in Ricci really were nonbiased, it wouldn&#039;t be a problem that it disadvantaged black people; their failure would be due to their own failure to qualify. The assessment New Haven used, though, had serious problems, as determined by the city itself, the dissenters, and the trial &amp; intermediate courts. Quotas, on the other hand, are absolute: &quot;X white people, Y black people.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Justice Scalia&#8217;s answer, plainly, is &#8220;it can&#8217;t.&#8221; But I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s right (surprise!!!!). Disparate impact only applies when a company implements a policy that can&#8217;t be backed up with a legitimate business purpose. If the test in Ricci really were nonbiased, it wouldn&#8217;t be a problem that it disadvantaged black people; their failure would be due to their own failure to qualify. The assessment New Haven used, though, had serious problems, as determined by the city itself, the dissenters, and the trial &amp; intermediate courts. Quotas, on the other hand, are absolute: &#8220;X white people, Y black people.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2009/06/29/supreme-court-rules-in-ricci/#comment-11894</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 22:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acandidworld.net/?p=9484#comment-11894</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I haven&#039;t read the opinions yet (just got home, and need to eat dinner), but when I get to that, I&#039;m probably still going to have this question: how can the disparate impact provision be squared with the constitutional ban on quotas?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read the opinions yet (just got home, and need to eat dinner), but when I get to that, I&#8217;m probably still going to have this question: how can the disparate impact provision be squared with the constitutional ban on quotas?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Right Already Wrongly Condemning Sotomayor Over Ricci &#171; Submitted to a Candid World</title>
		<link>http://acandidworld.com/2009/06/29/supreme-court-rules-in-ricci/#comment-11881</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Right Already Wrongly Condemning Sotomayor Over Ricci &#171; Submitted to a Candid World]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:04:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://acandidworld.net/?p=9484#comment-11881</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Supreme Court Rules in Ricci, Limiting Title VII&#8217;s Antidiscrimination&#160;Provisions  [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Supreme Court Rules in Ricci, Limiting Title VII&#8217;s Antidiscrimination&nbsp;Provisions  [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

